Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-through of Ex3

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Autochton is noted to be fairly puny for having nine souls, and Gaia is also noted to be on the small side at 12. Malfeas has about 25 or so. So a reasonable assumption is 15-16 on average.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post

      Does it actually say that they are examples anywhere? There's no total for the number of Yozis or First Circle Demons given in the core book either, so from the information I have I can't infer that without assuming stuff. It's not an unreasonable assumption sure, but an assumption nonetheless for someone not familiar with the setting beforehand.
      ​I find such assumptions to be something that arises naturally from writing.



      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
        Just as a heads up on this - one of my players was thinking about being a sorcerer in my current game, and on hearing he could only take Terrestrial Circle at startup immediately ditched the idea. I get the feeling that this was at least partly because workings aren't well-signposted in the book, so he felt he had to load up on levels to get access to "the good spells".* I'm just about to start reading workings, and I still have little or no idea from the book about what they are. Some general description of them beyond the two sentences they get on pp.464-465 would have been seriously helpful.
        Has he READ the Terrestrial spells?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
          Just as a heads up on this - one of my players was thinking about being a sorcerer in my current game, and on hearing he could only take Terrestrial Circle at startup immediately ditched the idea. I get the feeling that this was at least partly because workings aren't well-signposted in the book, so he felt he had to load up on levels to get access to "the good spells".* I'm just about to start reading workings, and I still have little or no idea from the book about what they are. Some general description of them beyond the two sentences they get on pp.464-465 would have been seriously helpful.

          *That said, the ditching sorcery could be the player; I've never played with him before (so don't know his habits), and his next concept was a Night Ebon Shadow Stylist, which was immediately switched to Dawn when he realised he couldn't take Martial Arts supernal as a Night. Take from that what you will.
          This is on player, Terrestial Circle Spells will always be the most used and pretty much "bread and butter" Sorceries. Celestial Spells are the powers that can solve entire stories, while Solar Spells are powers that can CREATE entire stories.
          And Terrestial Spells are pretty much on 2-3 Essence scale of power at the start of the game when compared to Charms.

          On side note, if you need more Spells I have rewritten a lot of 2nd Edition Spells for 3rd Edition (with good amount of Celestial and Solar Circle) :-)


          My homebrew/rewrites:
          2nd->3rd Edition Sorcery Spells Rewrite
          Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes Evocations
          Solar Occult Charms for Sorcerers
          Solar Thrown Charms (with Solar Danmaku Charms)

          Comment


          • Another thing about Sorcery:

            Remember that the vast majority of beings in the setting are actually incapable of using any kind of sorcery above Terrestrial level. Only Celestial Exalts and powerful gods/demons can use celestial circle, and only the Solar Exalted themselves can use Solar circle. Terrestrial Circle is already strong enough to be worth learning even with no hope of reaching the higher circles.

            Comment


            • Sorcerous Workings
              • Sorcerous workings are permanent miracle workings, acts of creation through sorcery.
              • The extent to which the sorcerer's intent is carried out is measured by its ambition, finesse, and the means available. Very clear and seemingly simple system to resolve, nicely explained. But the devil will be in the detail...
              • Extended Int+Occ, with difficulties based on finesse. As with crafting, you are assumed to be spending time on projects off-screen (and expected to be off-screen too). If you postpone for too long, the ST can throw obstacle-based reminders at you to bring you back to it.
              • Experience points pay for finishing, with more ambitious projects consuming more on an exponential basis, with lesser costs for lower-circle workings. If xp is spent on a destroyed workng, the xp are refunded at the end of the story to protect the character's investment.
              • That's a nice mechanic, I'm surprised it's not flagged elsewhere for things that consume xp in a similar way (thinking about Wyld-Shaping Technique particularly, but I'm sure there are other comparable ones that I've forgotten). Noted for future houserule reference.
              Sorcerous Workings & Botches Sidebar
              • Botches in the extended rolls add complications to sorcerous workings, rather than failing them outright by themselves. Failures with botches do horrible things.
              • As you can't fail sorcerous workings on a botch, I assume that the only way to fail sorcerous workings is by the terminus running out?
              • The examples are quite cool.
              Ambition
              • Ambition is the scale of the working attempted.
              • The 1-3 scale repeated for different circles feels... weird but passable. I guess it's to keep the higher works manageable for sorcerers with those traits, who may not have appreciable differences in their dice pools to those with lower traits.
              • Ambition 1 = spell level effect, Ambition 2 = more than spell level effect, Ambition 3 = the highest level possible of the circle.
              • The gradation between Ambition 2 & 3 doesn't feel entirely clear at this point. But we'll probably find that out in the sections to come.
              • Terrestrial workings modify the natural world, with little supernatural involvement. Should be routine for dragon-blooded and mortal sorcerers.
              • Why is summoning a first circle demon a working here, and not a spell?
              • Celestial workings are much more supernatural than terrestrial workings, and can powerfully bless or curse whole regions.
              • Again, demon summoning is a working AND a spell? What's the point of the spell, then?
              • Solar workings can bend the universe, encompassing large cities at their lower end and the whole cosmos at the higher end. Anything that is possible with sorcery is possible through the Solar Circle.
              • The examples here (which I've not given because space) are all great, but there's no reference to how workings are meant to link up with creating artefacts, despite the crafting rules referencing workings as a way to create certain powerful artefacts. Is this mentioned elsewhere later on, I wonder?
              The Limits of Sorcery sidebar
              • Immortality has a catch: cool. Keeping death as a possibility is always good in my book.
              • No resurrection. Again, done to keep death dramatically significant. I'm sensing a theme here...
              • No time travel, because choice matters.
              • All good reasons for the restrictions.
              Finesse
              • Finesse is the control a sorcerer has over the working, set by the player. Determines how the intent is fulfilled.
              • Totally random thought, but has anyone adapted the workings framework to make a Bureaucracy system? It feels like it has the right sort of moving parts, so to speak.
              • Ah, so lower Finesse = more ST control of the results. That... feels difficult to categorise.
              • The categorisation didn't really help. Would have been great to see the clay servant example in Finesse 1 at the different levels of input.
              • As it stands, "thing of clay that serves its master faithfully" sounds good enough. It took me a few reads through to grok how the ST can change this sort of thing, and I'm still not totally clear on it - at what point does the player decide the primary properties of the working, for example? Would Finesse 1 be enough to specify that the servant is human-shaped, for example? My gut says no, but that doesn't make much in-universe sense.
              • The finesse can be lowered as a working goes on, but each drop in Finesse counts as a botch in the process. Cool!
              Means
              • All the stuff beyond the sorcerer's own raw power that they can put into the working. These add to the working's terminus.
              • A working with no means has a terminus of 5.
              • Complementary spells & abilities makes sense, although 5 seems a little high for a minimum ability. But then, this is Exalted and 5s are relatively common.
              • Co-operation also works, although benchmark Occult rating for the non-sorcerers would have been nice.
              • As ever, the kinds of exotic materials examples are brilliant, and I feel utterly unable to be imaginative enough to match them.
              • Sorcerous infrastructure is an interesting point - it's generally assumed in most fantasy that a workshop with guttering candles, hollow skulls, dusty books and ravens comes with the territory. I like that that sort of thing is called out as rare here.
              Beyond the Boundaries
              • Sorcerers can attempt workings beyond their current circle, which is a nice touch.
              • The increased finesse, and the justification for a lower finesse, makes elegant sense.
              • Auto-botches for failed rolls sound... interesting.
              • Why are ambition 3 Solar Circle workings the only thing that's restricted? I guess if things were totally unachievable from Terrestrial (like the whole of the Solar Circle, for example), the Adamant classification wouldn't really exist.
              • Bigger intervals and higher experience costs. These things are not easy.
              Undoing a Sorcerous Working
              • Undoing a sorcerous working is making a working that produces the opposite effect. Both effects remain in play, and their interaction sounds... interesting.
              • Stopping it from being completed is the best option, sabotaging means is possible.
              • Players can have 'plot senses' to detect a working is happening, with bonuses if they're a sorcerer themselves or if they see stuff happening directly.
              • How exactly would you storytell this? And why isn't it Perception-based? Intelligence feels like the killer stat for any sorcerous thing ever at this rate.
              A Sample Working
              • Love it. Very helpful.
              Losing Means Sidebar
              • Losing a means takes away dice and counts as a botch.
              • Having enough successes and then losing Means cuts threshold successes from the rolls in half. This feels like it's somehow worse than if the project was part way through? Not sure I get the intent here - punishing perfectionism is what it feels like.
              Workings sounds awesome. A fantastically simple and flexible system, which can let STs and players do really crazy things. I love it. Also very clearly discussed, with many examples along the way. I'm still not sure how "pure" sorcerous workings interact with constructions through - can you create stuff ex nihlo with workings? It sounds like sorcery's wheelhouse, but it feels very deliberately avoided. This may be to avoid stepping on Craft's toes, but not even acknowledging the intersection of the systems feels a bit much. And the crafting system only mentions sorcerous workings in relation to fixing First Age stuff. Is all new magical item stuff -just- artefact creation?

              I also want to go away and see if this can be adapted for Bureaucracy. Which has probably already been done somewhere, as this feels so ridiculously fitting for that.

              But for now, on the Thaumaturgy!


              A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-Through of Ex3 - my thoughts, notes and trials and tribulations with the Exalted 3rd edition rules.
              Ex3 Reference Materials - currently includes an ST screen, common actions sheet, weapons reference sheet, character creation summary and mortal QCs reference sheet.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                Totally random thought, but has anyone adapted the workings framework to make a Bureaucracy system? It feels like it has the right sort of moving parts, so to speak.
                I also want to go away and see if this can be adapted for Bureaucracy. Which has probably already been done somewhere, as this feels so ridiculously fitting for that.
                Irked has done so here: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/6386884/ although in doing so he also rewrites Workings themselves a fair amount, as well as Craft.

                (I'm not really a fan of the changes because I think they sacrifice the elegance of the system as it's written - that you can pretty easily just eyeball an effect, decide who should be "normally" doing it, and assign it an Ambition / Circle.)

                But for now, on the Thaumaturgy!
                lol

                Comment


                • There is a similar sidebar in Survival about pets that die, IIRC. The XP you've invested in them gets refunded.

                  Comment


                  • WST, at least, does not give a refund like Workings do; you have to pay XP just to spin the wheel, there, even if you don't successfully make anything.

                    Originally posted by AtG View Post
                    Irked has done so here: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/6386884/ although in doing so he also rewrites Workings themselves a fair amount, as well as Craft.

                    (I'm not really a fan of the changes because I think they sacrifice the elegance of the system as it's written - that you can pretty easily just eyeball an effect, decide who should be "normally" doing it, and assign it an Ambition / Circle.)
                    This is a relatively fair critique, thought it's hard for me to see how one could do otherwise while unifying Craft/Bureaucracy/Workings into a single system, and cutting down on multiplication of systems seems worth the trade to me.

                    (More indisputably, some of the numbers are currently wonky and need to be tweaked.)


                    Homebrew: Lunar Charms for 3e

                    Solar Charm Rewrite (Complete) (Now with Charm cards!)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                      • Again, demon summoning is a working AND a spell? What's the point of the spell, then?
                      Summoning a demon via the spell and inviting him into Creation via a working are very different things. Using a working to invite a demon in doesn't bind it in any way. You don't get a binding or even banishing roll, the demon is totally free to do whatever it wants. The spell takes a single day while the working needs at least a week, no matter how good you roll.
                      Basically, it's the difference between dragging a demon into Creation to make him your slave and opening a door to malfeas and hoping the demon that comes through can be persuaded/tricked into doing what you want.
                      But the working allows you to get a demon into Creation you couldn't summon at your level of sorcery. It's so there's a way of getting an unbound second/third circle demon into Creation without requiring a Solar Circle Sorcerer that somehow botched his binding roll. It's so you can have an infernal cult lead by a terrestrial sorcerer slowly opening a gateway to invite in their second circle overlord, or have a Dragonblooded invite Mara into Creation to bargain with her in person.


                      Some of me humble homebrew for ex3:
                      Artifacts for Crumple's DB homebrew
                      Some Lintha QCs
                      A Wyld Behemoth

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                        *That said, the ditching sorcery could be the player; I've never played with him before (so don't know his habits), and his next concept was a Night Ebon Shadow Stylist, which was immediately switched to Dawn when he realised he couldn't take Martial Arts supernal as a Night. Take from that what you will.
                        Sounds like the player, to me. I know full well it's gonna take a while to get Solar Sorcery, but the fact I can't short-cut it with Supernal makes it more valuable, for me at least.

                        Originally posted by SLS
                        The first edition corebook didn't have a lot of context for 3rd Circle Demons either, but people still found it playable. As a general rule, we assume that we don't actuallyneed to provide more information about any given setting element than the 1e core did to provide a playable setting, though in many case more information is of benefit.
                        That seems reasonable, but ill-considered. 1E was a great book, but it wasn't the platonic ideal of a RPG. If it were, we wouldn't be talking about what amounts to its third rewrite. In this case, I doubt excluding 3CD examples from the text makes much immediate difference, but our core splat can summon them. How long do we need to wait before the official system is going to support us actually doing that?

                        Originally posted by Xerxes
                        It's not so much lack of information that's ringing alarm bells, it's more lack of context. There is a lot of "if you don't like this, houserule" in some parts of the book, but it feels conspicuously absent in others. It's that contrast that I'm finding difficult to parse. It gets called out often, but not always - do we assume that everything is an example anyway (right down to the charm rules, as there are points in the system where it says "make your own stuff") and carry on? That's... not a takeaway I would expect from a core rulebook, particularly one as substantial as Ex3.

                        Does my perspective make sense now? I feel like I may be crying over spilt milk, but I'm trying to explain (and understand) my feelings as much as I can.
                        This is how I've been feeling for a while, actually. My players are new to RPGs, and their enthusiasm for engaging with the formal rules and setting (as opposed to engaging with me about them) plummets every time they come across something like this.

                        Specifically, the book is written in a fairly inconsistent fashion. Verbiage in the mechanics is inconsistent. As Sanctaphrax pointed out, in many places you have to already be familiar with 1E/2E to provide context for other fluff and crunch. I want to evangelize the hell out of Exalted, but it's hard to involve people when they see the size of the book AND the book violates their expectations as a reader. My players don't know that charms, spells, and spirits are all starting points from which to expand, and frankly it doesn't always occur to me to tell them stuff like that.

                        Originally posted by Xerxes
                        Workings sounds awesome. A fantastically simple and flexible system, which can let STs and players do really crazy things. I love it. Also very clearly discussed, with many examples along the way. I'm still not sure how "pure" sorcerous workings interact with constructions through - can you create stuff ex nihlo with workings? It sounds like sorcery's wheelhouse, but it feels very deliberately avoided. This may be to avoid stepping on Craft's toes, but not even acknowledging the intersection of the systems feels a bit much. And the crafting system only mentions sorcerous workings in relation to fixing First Age stuff. Is all new magical item stuff -just- artefact creation?
                        The devs effectively answered that question in the rules. Crafting stuff doesn't cost XP, so it's more efficient for that sort of thing. Workings CAN make stuff, but it needs a magical context. You don't make 10,000 apples; you bless an orchard to deliver 10,000 apples a year.

                        Also, the combination of Sorcery and Artifice is First Age Artifacts, so that part is really easy.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                          Again, demon summoning is a working AND a spell? What's the point of the spell, then?
                          Summoning workings is mainly there so that your mortal sorcerer Zorayas can summon a Third Circle demon. The benefit of spells is that you get to bind them.


                          Developer for Exalted

                          Want to write for Exalted? Look at the freelancer submission guidelines.

                          Robert Vance's Patreon

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Irked View Post
                            This is a relatively fair critique, thought it's hard for me to see how one could do otherwise while unifying Craft/Bureaucracy/Workings into a single system, and cutting down on multiplication of systems seems worth the trade to me.

                            (More indisputably, some of the numbers are currently wonky and need to be tweaked.)
                            Yeah, sorry, I didn't want that to come across as "Irked is a stupid-head who writes dumb things", I just didn't want my link to come across as an unqualified recommendation.

                            (I do think your system could still work without the change to Means, though.)

                            More generally, I've been trying to get a handle on putting various things into the Circle / Ambition framework. The main thing I am running into is the need for something like a Marble tier to enable Terrestrials to be noticeably better than mortals at Crafting and Bureaucracy, which is hard to just insert without rebalancing a lot of other stuff.

                            In the Modern systems I've written up so far, this is avoided by the fact that I compressed the scale so there's no Solar / Celestial distinction; the Circles are just Mortal / Terrestrial / Celestial. This works for my setting (in which Lunars and probably Sidereals don't even exist) but is really hard to square with the normal Exalted setting.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                              Summoning workings is mainly there so that your mortal sorcerer Zorayas can summon a Third Circle demon. The benefit of spells is that you get to bind them.
                              YES BINDING YES IMPORTANT.

                              Ahem.

                              Yes. Summoning an unbound demon is less like a tool for your character, and more like the plot device that started the current debacle that your characters will be encountering this week.


                              Current project: Stranger Creations, unofficial settings and NPCs for Exalted.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Colin_Fredericks View Post

                                YES BINDING YES IMPORTANT.

                                Ahem.

                                Yes. Summoning an unbound demon is less like a tool for your character, and more like the plot device that started the current debacle that your characters will be encountering this week.
                                An unbound demon isn't necessarily a disaster. Zorayas didn't bind Azhrarn, she tricked him.


                                Developer for Exalted

                                Want to write for Exalted? Look at the freelancer submission guidelines.

                                Robert Vance's Patreon

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X