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EXALTED RETURNS - The Solar "Backer Charm" PDF

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  • Originally posted by JayTee View Post
    I was expecting Gordon Ramsy, and instead I got Chef Joe. How else was I supposed to feel about all this?
    Okay. Agree to disagree. Clearly we're not gonna see eye-to-eye, but I think that your framing is actively insulting to years of hard work on the part of the developers and writers.

    With 2e, they were working within the bounds of a broken system and still managed to produce content that was flavorful and engaging, and helped me get through a lot of the mechanical slog of 2e because of how amazing it was. With the opportunity to write the bounds of the new system, I expected this to continue. It didn't. Instead they contributed to the mechanical slog
    Again, different strokes. My play experiences have been pretty smooth and breezy so far with a few different groups.


    With all due respect (and I mean that genuinely as opposed to sarcastically) I believe you are making the Oberoni Fallacy, so you'll have to forgive me if I... dismiss? (there needs to be a nicer word for that) this claim.
    This is fair. I'm not sure how best to navigate rule zero in the light of the golden and orichalcum rules, but their presence in the system seems to indicate to me that the potential for people to abuse mechanics, thereby breaking social and narrative contract are in the domain of individual tables and are no reason not to include cool, flavorful powers at the high end of play. I'll accept that this is, though textually supported, fallacious reasoning, even if that reasoning appears to be shared by developers. Writing that I absolutely realize that that has every reason to upset you! You are definitely entitled to that upset.


    First off, props and respect for keeping this impersonal with your last sentence. Better than I did with Molez and Glamourweaver (My bad to each of you, I got cross and let it get the best of me).

    More on point, sadly there isn't much room for interpretation. The text of the charms are right there in the book. Much of it is unclear, which in turn hurts speed of play, which in turn make the game less ideal than it could have been. I'm not asking for perfection, but I am asking for a level of quality that I have been given previously. I don't think this is unreasonable.
    Again, I haven't been dealing with a lot of clarity issues at my table and in play. I know there are some weird potential interactions in the rules (esp. around counterattacks) and I recognize the validity of those. I have also seen some people being very uncheritable or deliberately obtuse (I recall some very strange interpretations of archery charms such as to make them useless). I'm not saying the system is above criticism or without issue. My experience is that this is not as endemic as some make it out to be. This could be table-level stuff where the people in the games I am playing in are like to interpret rules in the same way that I do. I don't know. I can only really say that it has yet to be a major issue or impediment to the flow of my own games.



    Pronounced "Monkey Pie"

    Find my actual play content here!

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    • It's going to be like this whenever John posts, isn't it?

      Forever more.


      Come and rock me Amadeus.

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      • Sadly, yes it is.


        "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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        • Originally posted by Monkipi View Post
          Okay. Agree to disagree. Clearly we're not gonna see eye-to-eye, but I think that your framing is actively insulting to years of hard work on the part of the developers and writers.
          It's less an insult and more an expression of incredible disappointment. I know they can produce way way way better content than this, but for some reason, they... didn't. It's like listening to a band produce great music despite being given shitty instruments (2e), and then when they have the chance to custom-desgin their own instruments from scratch (3e) the music suddenly goes from fantastic to bafflingly average, and you're stuck wondering what the hell happened to all that great stuff they produced.


          Originally posted by Monkipi View Post
          This is fair. I'm not sure how best to navigate rule zero in the light of the golden and orichalcum rules, but their presence in the system seems to indicate to me that the potential for people to abuse mechanics, thereby breaking social and narrative contract are in the domain of individual tables and are no reason not to include cool, flavorful powers at the high end of play. I'll accept that this is, though textually supported, fallacious reasoning, even if that reasoning appears to be shared by developers. Writing that I absolutely realize that that has every reason to upset you! You are definitely entitled to that upset.
          I uh... can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not with that last bit. In the interest of keeping this civil, I'll assume you're not being sarcastic, though. I'm not really all that upset by the rule zero fallacy, just pointing out that it's not really all that great of an argument.


          Originally posted by Monkipi View Post
          Again, I haven't been dealing with a lot of clarity issues at my table and in play. I know there are some weird potential interactions in the rules (esp. around counterattacks) and I recognize the validity of those. I have also seen some people being very uncheritable or deliberately obtuse (I recall some very strange interpretations of archery charms such as to make them useless). I'm not saying the system is above criticism or without issue. My experience is that this is not as endemic as some make it out to be. This could be table-level stuff where the people in the games I am playing in are like to interpret rules in the same way that I do. I don't know. I can only really say that it has yet to be a major issue or impediment to the flow of my own games.
          I suppose the real deciding factor on the clarity of the rules/charms will be later on, when/if we get dozens of threads all asking for clarification on the same issues over and over, or discussing what the intended purpose of XYZ is.
          Last edited by JayTee; 04-30-2016, 02:58 AM.

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          • On Rule Zero, my take is those Charms are better there than not. Because I think that interesting, genre-emulating effects like thsoe are more important to have than not. But I also am of the opnion that it's not possible to get something everyone always likes, so I err on the side of being able to provid emore options than to restrict things on the basis that some people are assholes.

            And stuff.


            And stuff.
            Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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            • Originally posted by John Mørke View Post
              ... Trust me, I'm The Doctor! ...
              Fixed that for you


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              • Originally posted by JayTee View Post
                It's less an insult and more an expression of incredible disappointment.
                If you insult someone without meaning to, that doesn't change whether or not it is an insult.

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                • Originally posted by Korhal_IV View Post

                  Close enough for government work.

                  (makes Bureaucracy check)

                  The reason this is funny to me is I knew and worked with a guy for a time who said that. Also said things like "I might wear gloves when working with this contact neruotoxin if it were a cumulative neurotoxin. But it's not." Pretty sloppy in some ways, but got things to always work out.

                  On Exalted living up to the hype, it didn't (based on my thoughts). Before you burn me in effigy, bear with me here. A) Hype often is started with a seed planted by the makers, but doesn't always have much added after that. There's a reason they call it the Hype Train. A lot of the hype was created by fans, not the devs. B) As such, things that people are going to care the most about tend to get the most hype. Exalted I think we can count there. C) As such expectations can get so high that a game could be great and still not live up to the hype. Exalted would have had to have been the One Core, the book to rule them all and in shininess bind them. I've played video games for years, and the Hype Train is a terrible creature.

                  In conclusion, Exalted doesn't live up to the hype, but it'd pretty much have to turn YOU into an Exalt to live up to the hype expectations. As such, I think it can both be true it didn't live up to the hype and that it's a pretty good to very good game (depending on player/ST).



                  ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

                  http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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                  • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                    If you insult someone without meaning to, that doesn't change whether or not it is an insult.
                    If someone takes a statement of disappointment as an insult, then I, unfortunately, really can't help that.

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                    • Originally posted by Chejop Kejak View Post
                      Exalted's Earth-based fans died as they lived - in a massive round of flaming.
                      saw this and for some reason I have to say the following, "I live, I die, I play Exalted again."

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                      • Originally posted by haren View Post
                        In conclusion, Exalted doesn't live up to the hype, but it'd pretty much have to turn YOU into an Exalt to live up to the hype expectations. As such, I think it can both be true it didn't live up to the hype and that it's a pretty good to very good game (depending on player/ST).
                        True. Perhaps a better question is "Are you happy with the product you got?"

                        And I certainly am, my grumbles aside. It's STILL one of the best systems I've played.


                        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                        • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                          True. Perhaps a better question is "Are you happy with the product you got?"

                          And I certainly am, my grumbles aside. It's STILL one of the best systems I've played.
                          I'm not sure on best I've played, but I'm very happy with the product. And on the "best I've played", it's more I need more time to think about it. I won't lie, sometimes I find stuff like combat very hard to keep all in mind (but that likely has a lot to do with how little combat we've had in the game I'm in). I'm EXTREMELY happy with the charms, and any charms I've made are more specialty stuff that fits my character (with the understanding that I got ST ok after they looked them over). Quite a bit to love. I think I'm where you are for the most part.



                          ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

                          http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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                          • Originally posted by JayTee
                            It's less an insult and more an expression of incredible disappointment.
                            An expression of diappointment that framed the subject in bad terms. "Oh, I'm disappointed by how much you suck. Hey, don't be insulted or anything, I'm just expressing how you sucking so much made me feel!"


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • Originally posted by JayTee View Post


                              I uh... can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not with that last bit. In the interest of keeping this civil, I'll assume you're not being sarcastic, though. I'm not really all that upset by the rule zero fallacy, just pointing out that it's not really all that great of an argument.
                              I'm not being sarcastic. I recognize that it isn't a great argument. I'm not trying to construct an excellent argument as much as I am trying to construct an explanatory framework for why things might be the way they are, which advances from developer intent. Intent, which as far as I have seen explained, I agree with. I am also trying to understand how and why the game might not sit well with people. It's about why things might be the way they are and not in the logical defense of why that may or may not be.


                              Pronounced "Monkey Pie"

                              Find my actual play content here!

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                              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                An expression of diappointment that framed the subject in bad terms. "Oh, I'm disappointed by how much you suck. Hey, don't be insulted or anything, I'm just expressing how you sucking so much made me feel!"
                                I'll stop using the metaphor when it stops being appropriate. Applebee's isn't bad, it's just not Restaurant Gordon Ramsay. When Gordon Ramsay serves you Applebee's, you're inclined to ask what the heck happened with no small amount of incredulity.

                                Originally posted by Monkipi View Post
                                I'm not being sarcastic. I recognize that it isn't a great argument. I'm not trying to construct an excellent argument as much as I am trying to construct an explanatory framework for why things might be the way they are, which advances from developer intent. Intent, which as far as I have seen explained, I agree with. I am also trying to understand how and why the game might not sit well with people. It's about why things might be the way they are and not in the logical defense of why that may or may not be.
                                I feel like that's the crux of the whole issue, in that 3e seems to be heavily dependent on rule zero for interpretation. It's like an upside-down pyramid resting on it's point, and needs constant checking and readjustment to make sure it doesn't get unbalanced and fall over. Some people like that, and that's fine. Personally, I prefer a pyramid that's balanced on it's base.

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