Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mr. Demmywinks has questions.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Boston123 View Post
    The "annoying" thing (not really annoying, more of a "huh?" moment") about shields in E3 being so ..... underpowered is that, in the real world, shields WERE overpowered.
    Yeah, but real life can make for a real shitty play experience. In the real world, one hit from an arrow will probably take you out of the right.

    Which is realistic, but is not fun.

    There's probably a middle ground between the in-book "Wait, why would anybody take a shield?" and your "You'd have to be an IDIOT to not have a shield"


    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Boston123 View Post
      The "annoying" thing (not really annoying, more of a "huh?" moment") about shields in E3 being so ..... underpowered is that, in the real world, shields WERE overpowered. Something like 95-99% of all martial cultures on the planet used some form of shield, (the Japanese were one of the few that didn't)and the shield was arguably the most important part of defense for the average warrior. Sure, you could use a helmet, or throw on some armor, but not having a shield was such a liability in combat that many cultures refused to take unshielded warriors as part of the battle-line.

      And, as someone who has sparred 1v1 with a shield before, the complaint of "increasing the shields Defense makes combat useless" is, well, rather true. In 1v1, with both parties equipped with spears and shields, unless someone rushes the other and pins the shield (a Disarm gambit), or removes the shield entirely from the equation (Disarm gambit, again), chances are you are just going to be bonking blows off each other shields. Which is why most "common" warriors had winged spears and axes, which could be used to hook around shields and pull them away. Or, you team up with a friend, and one person distracts the shield-user while the other goes for the kill.

      I, believe me or not, actually prefer mortal games in Exalted, and shields are rather important to mortals. I houseruled that shields give +1 to Parry, +1 on Clash attacks, and lowers Onslaught penalties by 1. Makes shields rather nice to have, and makes teamwork much more important. Now, instead of all fighting as individuals, my characters are working together to disarm shield-wielders, or to distract them through Gambits to take them down quickly. Plus, that +1 bonus doesn't mean all that much to the Exalted, who can usually just take mortal attacks off the chin anyhow, and who throw out so many dice that the shield doesn't really make all that much of a difference.

      TL;DR; shields are important for mortals, but when you Exalt, they don't really matter all that much.

      Those sound like very good house rules for a mortal heroes game that heavily emphasizes realistic equipment selection.

      The basic game deliberately under-stats shields, though (and gives no mechanical weight to helmets at all, so your character doesn't have to hide his cool hairstyle and face tattoos), for the simple reason that many players, especially those who lean more toward the anime side of the game's aesthetics, don't want to use them, and don't want to feel punished for stylishly two-handing a katana or broadsword or jumping around with a spear and no shield or whatever. We're very much aware that the spear and the shield are historically the winningest weapons of all time. We placed top value on "use whatever kit-out makes your character look cool to your satisfaction" above realism.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

        Yeah, but real life can make for a real shitty play experience. In the real world, one hit from an arrow will probably take you out of the right.

        Which is realistic, but is not fun.

        There's probably a middle ground between the in-book "Wait, why would anybody take a shield?" and your "You'd have to be an IDIOT to not have a shield"
        Well, to be honest, a solid shot from an arrow will probably kill/severely wound the average mortal in Exalted, as well.

        Take a mortal with 2 Wits, 2 Awareness (so, a JB Roll of 4 dice). They roll 2 successes, so get a starting Initiative of 5. They are equipped with a selfbow, and are at Medium range. They decide to go for a kill, because, honestly, why not? ( Relatedly, I have found my characters to actually favor starting combat with a decisive attack. If they win, the damage caused to the opponent usually makes them combat-ineffective. If they fail, what is -2 Initiative at the start of combat?) After the two turns turn spent aiming ( I have very rarely had my mortal characters not go for the aiming bonus), the archer looses an arrow.

        Dex 2 + Archery 2 + 3 Aim = 7 dice, vs 4 Parry ([2 Dex + 2 Melee)/] + 2 shield). Let us assume the archer hits, which is an entirely reasonable assumption. .The archer has an Initiative of 5, so they roll 5 dice, and let us assume they get 2 successes. The opponent is now at -1, and since they have 2 Stamina, they are now bleeding. They are now, basically, combat-ineffective.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Holden View Post


          Those sound like very good house rules for a mortal heroes game that heavily emphasizes realistic equipment selection.

          The basic game deliberately under-stats shields, though (and gives no mechanical weight to helmets at all, so your character doesn't have to hide his cool hairstyle and face tattoos), for the simple reason that many players, especially those who lean more toward the anime side of the game's aesthetics, don't want to use them, and don't want to feel punished for stylishly two-handing a katana or broadsword or jumping around with a spear and no shield or whatever. We're very much aware that the spear and the shield are historically the winningest weapons of all time. We placed top value on "use whatever kit-out makes your character look cool to your satisfaction" above realism.

          I understand. And, that is basically what my game is, and this is actually reflected in my story. Most of the PC's use shields because they, well, don't want to die, but the guy with the Longaxe is a regular face-wrecker. He has Specialty: Longaxe, Specialty: Formation Fighting, plus he likes to stunt every chance he gets. Sure, he has to be careful of arrows and other projectiles, and avoid fighting too many opponents at once without backup, and he knows this, but, believe me, he earns all his glory.

          I put so much focus on shields in my current story because the location, a Norse/Finnish-thing set in the Northeast, draws on that (the Finnish-expies, for example, don't use shields very much because, well, they have plentiful trees to use as cover, plus they strike from ambush a lot). Most "elite" troops (Huskarl-equivalents) don't use shields, and use two-handed weapons with heavy armor. Most "common" warriors, which is what the PCs started out as, don't have armor. Iron and Steel was very expensive "back then".

          One of my PCs actually dropped their shield and picked up a waraxe and a sword, once they got some armor. They understood the defensive penalties, but the ability to go "full Viking" (in their words) was worth it. They, and the Longaxe guy above, negated some of these penalties by fighting with their lackeys in a shieldwall, who used the Defend Other action to help them out.

          I must say: mortal games in 3E are much more possible, and much more fun now, both for the players and for me as the ST. So, great job on that.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Boston123 View Post
            Well, to be honest, a solid shot from an arrow will probably kill/severely wound the average mortal in Exalted, as well.
            Which is why you don't PLAY Average Mortals in the game, because that would be a shitty play experience.


            Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

              Which is why you don't PLAY Average Mortals in the game, because that would be a shitty play experience.
              -ahem-

              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

              My group, and I, have been having boatloads (literal longships, even!) of fun.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Boston123 View Post
                -ahem-

                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                My group, and I, have been having boatloads (literal longships, even!) of fun.
                Glad you are. I'm just noting that I'm glad to take breaks from reality for my game, since playing an average mortal (not a Heroic Mortal, who are emphatically not normal, but rather EXTRAORDINARY) would probably not be very fun.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                  Glad you are. I'm just noting that I'm glad to take breaks from reality for my game, since playing an average mortal (not a Heroic Mortal, who are emphatically not normal, but rather EXTRAORDINARY) would probably not be very fun.
                  Oh Jeez, we use the mortal character creation rules in the core book. Sorry I didn't put the "heroic" statement on there. /s

                  Besides, the damage/health calculation thing I did in the post above is taken right off the character sheet. That is, a heroic mortal, not an average one.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Boston123 View Post

                    Oh Jeez, we use the mortal character creation rules in the core book. Sorry I didn't put the "heroic" statement on there. /s

                    Besides, the damage/health calculation thing I did in the post above is taken right off the character sheet. That is, a heroic mortal, not an average one.
                    Point. I retract some of my statements.

                    I should clarify, I'm not trying to say you can't have fun playing a mortal using the chargen rules. I ran one as a GMPC alongside some Solars, and she was surprisingly tough.

                    I just have a bit of an eye-rolling reaction to anybody who says "But it's realistic if-" to suggest a rule change, on the grounds that something realistic doesn't often make for a fun game experience.

                    I remember Spoony commenting a similar sentiment in a pirate/swashbuckling game. He made his character, the ships start boarding, he swings over, pulls out his cutlass... Then on one opponent's turn, they make an attack with a pistol. And Spoony's character drops.

                    Yeah, it's realistic to go down from the first shot you take, but it's not FUN to stat out a character and get killed in one shot. That's why I like the Withering/Decisive split in the game system.


                    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                      Point. I retract some of my statements.

                      I should clarify, I'm not trying to say you can't have fun playing a mortal using the chargen rules. I ran one as a GMPC alongside some Solars, and she was surprisingly tough.

                      I just have a bit of an eye-rolling reaction to anybody who says "But it's realistic if-" to suggest a rule change, on the grounds that something realistic doesn't often make for a fun game experience.

                      I remember Spoony commenting a similar sentiment in a pirate/swashbuckling game. He made his character, the ships start boarding, he swings over, pulls out his cutlass... Then on one opponent's turn, they make an attack with a pistol. And Spoony's character drops.

                      Yeah, it's realistic to go down from the first shot you take, but it's not FUN to stat out a character and get killed in one shot. That's why I like the Withering/Decisive split in the game system.

                      To be entirely fair, I absolutely love the Withering/Decisive split. It is, in all honesty, probably the most "realistic" definition of Initiative I have ever seen in a TTRPG.

                      And, again, to be entirely fair, I had the exact same reaction when I read how the shield rules worked. Technically, using the vanilla rules, you are (basically) just as defended and more combat effective swinging around two swords. My eyebrows shot up into the stratosphere when I read that. My rules now just make it so you aren't gimped by using a shield, little more. Again, against one of the Exalted, even my bonuses to shields made little difference.

                      My players initially would have agreed with you with regards to lethality. They came over from D&D, where you can tank wounds perfectly until you run out of HP. In our first combat encounter, they all fought as individuals, and got murdered. I "blue portalled" back to the beginning of the encounter, and reminded them how the combat system, stunting, and gambits worked. They started working together much more after that, and love how "realistic" combat is. One of them actually looked up videos of actual Viking combat tactics to better describe his stunts. They also started using realistic tactics to survive longer, like hiring/attracting followers and using the Battlegroup to give them bonuses

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Boston123 View Post


                        I understand. And, that is basically what my game is, and this is actually reflected in my story. Most of the PC's use shields because they, well, don't want to die, but the guy with the Longaxe is a regular face-wrecker. He has Specialty: Longaxe, Specialty: Formation Fighting, plus he likes to stunt every chance he gets. Sure, he has to be careful of arrows and other projectiles, and avoid fighting too many opponents at once without backup, and he knows this, but, believe me, he earns all his glory.

                        I put so much focus on shields in my current story because the location, a Norse/Finnish-thing set in the Northeast, draws on that (the Finnish-expies, for example, don't use shields very much because, well, they have plentiful trees to use as cover, plus they strike from ambush a lot). Most "elite" troops (Huskarl-equivalents) don't use shields, and use two-handed weapons with heavy armor. Most "common" warriors, which is what the PCs started out as, don't have armor. Iron and Steel was very expensive "back then".

                        One of my PCs actually dropped their shield and picked up a waraxe and a sword, once they got some armor. They understood the defensive penalties, but the ability to go "full Viking" (in their words) was worth it. They, and the Longaxe guy above, negated some of these penalties by fighting with their lackeys in a shieldwall, who used the Defend Other action to help them out.

                        I must say: mortal games in 3E are much more possible, and much more fun now, both for the players and for me as the ST. So, great job on that.

                        That sounds awesome, and I'm glad your group is having a good time with it =D

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Boston123 View Post
                          They started working together much more after that, and love how "realistic" combat is. One of them actually looked up videos of actual Viking combat tactics to better describe his stunts. They also started using realistic tactics to survive longer, like hiring/attracting followers and using the Battlegroup to give them bonuses
                          Y'know, that makes me smile. I don't know how 'realistic' the combat is, and didn't really care. When I first saw the new combat system, my reaction was "... Oh, that's clever... Okay, use Initiative to make Decisive attacks... Yes, I LIKE it!"


                          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                            Glad you are. I'm just noting that I'm glad to take breaks from reality for my game, since playing an average mortal (not a Heroic Mortal, who are emphatically not normal, but rather EXTRAORDINARY) would probably not be very fun.

                            I think you'll find that the term "heroic mortal" is not used a single time in Third Edition.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Holden View Post


                              I think you'll find that the term "heroic mortal" is not used a single time in Third Edition.
                              It's a mental term I use for "Mortal PC", I suppose. To differentiate between "Your PC" and "That Guy At The Bar"*. I guess I should try to work it out of my mindset.

                              *Exceptions may be if the guy at the bar is another Important Mortal


                              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I had an idea for shields/shield-like objects: Give the New Tag [COVER] which allows you to take a zero difficulty 'take cover' action with granted defence bonus being light shield +1 defence against ranged -1 defence against close range enemys as hiding behind your shield reduces your mobility. medium shields would be Plus/minus2 respectively Heavy shields would grant Full Cover but leave you at minus 3 defence because of the limited mobility. I might also limit chars in cover like this to normal move actions (no rushes for example). Not sure how broken this would be though.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X