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In Defense of "Bloat" - Praise for the Developers

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  • #16
    Is that a roundabout way of saying that disappearing 1s will eventually be ubiquitous for Solars?

    The impression I'd gotten here is that you'd made a very deliberate decision to exclude them from most abilities, and that writing Excellent Punch would be a serious mistake. Have I been misled?

    As for Force-Stealing Feint and Searing Quicksilver Flight, I quite like them. Not so fond of Eclectic Verbiage of Law, the various double-9s Performance Charms, the huge stack of Wyld-Shaping Charms, Craft, Bottomless Wellspring Approach...

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    • #17
      Man I hope that a huge increase in # of corebook Solar charms bodes well for other Exalted having more than ~6* charms per ability in their splatbooks.

      *Number pulled from memory without referring to wiki. I get to be lazy at 1 am.


      I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
      Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

        Sorry to say, but until the Backer Charms comes out, this is what we've got to work with and our only sample size. I mean, sure, it'll be alright when Supplement X comes out and then we get a wider look at the Solar Charms, but until then... All we have to work with are the Core Charms, and maybe things that homebrewers FAR more talented than your average Exalted player may have whipped up.
        1) The Orlando playtest group has managed quite a lot of homebrew content that is balanced and interesting. True they are a talented bunch of young university students, but I find that level of intelligence to be very common in the Exalted community.
        2) The Solar Charm set will never be fully published. Because it is technically infinite.
        3) The explicit purpose it serves is to give people the rules and examples they need to flesh out the set. To wit, anyone who looks at the Solar Charm set and writes more Charms is already working outside of what the core gives you to work with, and as far as we're concerned, they're doing god's work.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Erinys View Post
          Man I hope that a huge increase in # of corebook Solar charms bodes well for other Exalted having more than ~6* charms per ability in their splatbooks.

          *Number pulled from memory without referring to wiki. I get to be lazy at 1 am.

          It does mean that everyone gets a bit more amped up. Including Sidereals.

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          • #20
            Using a pattern I deliberately put in the mechanics as a holy authority on which to proclaim some certain lack of authority in the design seems like digging straight down in Minecraft. The Charm set exists as a model for making a wide variety of different Charms. It exists to be followed with homebrew.

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            • #21
              If that was intended as an answer to my question, then I'm afraid I'm not following. Here's a narrower question, which might make things easier for everyone:

              Excellent Strike in Brawl: good or bad?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by John Mørke View Post
                1) The Orlando playtest group has managed quite a lot of homebrew content that is balanced and interesting. True they are a talented bunch of young university students, but I find that level of intelligence to be very common in the Exalted community.
                That's great for them, but it doesn't do a lot for people who don't homebrew because they understand that they have no real concept of mechanical balance and by and large don't do a lot of homebrewing because they're afraid of borking the entire system.

                (It's me. I'm talking about myself here. I'm only barely dipping my toe into evocations, and Isecond-guess myself to an absurd degree)

                Edit: Though I should clarify... I actually don't have a BIG problem with the charms, aside from the fact that there's a lot of them. Like, I've given up trying to read all of them at once.
                Last edited by Kyman201; 05-25-2016, 02:30 AM.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                • #23
                  My problem isn't really with the number of Charms.

                  My problem is with the number of Charms combined with the "natural language" that makes getting through the Charms chapter an unrelenting slog, at least in part because it takes so long to actually extract what any given Charm does, mechanically, from the description.


                  Have you ever read a Coik post before, man? lol
                  -Holden

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Coik View Post
                    My problem isn't really with the number of Charms.

                    My problem is with the number of Charms combined with the "natural language" that makes getting through the Charms chapter an unrelenting slog, at least in part because it takes so long to actually extract what any given Charm does, mechanically, from the description.

                    I cannot express my agreement with this enough. When I got the advanced book way back in October, I found the charms difficult to wrap my head around mechanically. I, at the time, thought it simply fatigue from nearing graduation and stress. Having been fairly stand-offish to the forums for years, I had no idea what the whole 'natural language' business was until a friend told me. Then it clicked why I had absolutely no interest in reading the charms: they were confusing.

                    I'm not being angry or bitter. It was a neat idea to try for immersion, but I don't think it works.

                    I understand that this edition was painful to create. All great works of art require the blood, sweat and tears of their artists. I can't express my gratitude to the Dev staff for trying to keep Exalted alive when it was all but dead. I understand that writing such a thing and spending so much time on it is hard. It's even more difficult to take criticism on something that one has poured over for years and put in so much of their soul and drive, no matter how constructive or well intentioned that criticism might be.

                    However, please, please as an Exalted fan for over a decade, I am begging the Devs, on my knees, do not write the other splats this way.
                    Last edited by Kashi; 05-25-2016, 04:33 AM.




                    My Map of Third Edition Creation in a First Edition Style

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by putty View Post


                      I disagree. They get flavor from their function.

                      Initiative is an abstraction of your combat momentum/advantage, with charms like Force Stealing Feint, your evasive leaps and ducks cause your opponent's blows to fall further and further from the mark. You're building the story of the fight through the mechanics, I find them very evocative.

                      Abstraction. That word there, it is the problem.

                      "I dodge, and in doing so, gain some kind of advantage" is the inherent flavour of that Charm.

                      This is highly abstract. It doesn't STOP you from building a story, but it doesn't do a hell of a lot to HELP, either. A character with this Charm is a character who can dodge good, same they would be with any other Dodge Charm.

                      It makes their dodges better than normal dodges, because they end up dodging to... more advantageous positions? In an abstract way, they don't end up in any kind of specific advantageous position, just... generally better off.


                      You know what the (highly limited) flavour of the Charm could also be? +1 die to your next attack whenever you dodge. Or +1 DV when you dodge. Or hell, just +DV, really, it's just "you dodge betterer". Swap it's name with another random Dodge Charm and it'll probably fit just as well.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kashi View Post


                        I cannot express my agreement with this enough. When I got the advanced book way back in October, I found the charms difficult to wrap my head around mechanically. I, at the time, thought it simply fatigue from nearing graduation and stress. Having been fairly stand-offish to the forums for years, I had no idea what the whole 'natural language' business was until a friend told me. Then it clicked why I had absolutely no interest in reading the charms: they were confusing.

                        I'm not being angry or bitter. It was a neat idea to try for immersion, but I don't think it works.

                        I understand that this edition was painful to create. All great works of art require the blood, sweat and tears of their artists. I can't express my gratitude to the Dev staff for trying to keep Exalted alive when it was all but dead. I understand that writing such a thing and spending so much time on it is hard. It's even more difficult to take criticism on something that one has poured over for years and put in so much of their soul and drive, no matter how constructive or well intentioned that criticism might be.

                        However, please, please as an Exalted fan for over a decade, I am begging the Devs, on my knees, do not write the other splats this way.


                        No, thank you. Please keep the evocative language and avoid the technical language that is so prevalent in generic systems. Technical language, by its own admission, limits vocabulary. I want to read a medicine charm and understand what it feels like. Flawless Diagnosis Technique, for example, doesn't need to give me precise information on what is possible with specific lore and medicine ratings on whether the diagnosis in perfectly accurate. Plurality and nebulous interpretation of a charm is one of its strengths, not its weakness.


                        How can I know if what I claim I know to be true is rejecting the idea that there is something I might not know? How can I know if what I claim I don't know to be true is rejecting the idea that there is something I do know?
                        -Zhuangzi

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                          If that was intended as an answer to my question, then I'm afraid I'm not following. Here's a narrower question, which might make things easier for everyone:

                          Excellent Strike in Brawl: good or bad?
                          I don't think it technically breaks anything, but it behooves an aspiring Charm designer to give the Charms (even bread-and-butter base effect Charms) a subtly different function in order to make each ability feel different. Making different Abilities feel the same is a real and important consequence of cross-applying Charms like this.


                          A Clutch of Dragons: Hub Thread, Presence, Resistance, Ride, Sail, Socialize Stealth, Survival, Thrown, War, First Draft pdf<NEW

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Kashi View Post


                            I cannot express my agreement with this enough. When I got the advanced book way back in October, I found the charms difficult to wrap my head around mechanically. I, at the time, thought it simply fatigue from nearing graduation and stress. Having been fairly stand-offish to the forums for years, I had no idea what the whole 'natural language' business was until a friend told me. Then it clicked why I had absolutely no interest in reading the charms: they were confusing.

                            I'm not being angry or bitter. It was a neat idea to try for immersion, but I don't think it works.

                            I understand that this edition was painful to create. All great works of art require the blood, sweat and tears of their artists. I can't express my gratitude to the Dev staff for trying to keep Exalted alive when it was all but dead. I understand that writing such a thing and spending so much time on it is hard. It's even more difficult to take criticism on something that one has poured over for years and put in so much of their soul and drive, no matter how constructive or well intentioned that criticism might be.

                            However, please, please as an Exalted fan for over a decade, I am begging the Devs, on my knees, do not write the other splats this way.
                            Originally posted by Ostarion View Post



                            No, thank you. Please keep the evocative language and avoid the technical language that is so prevalent in generic systems. Technical language, by its own admission, limits vocabulary. I want to read a medicine charm and understand what it feels like. Flawless Diagnosis Technique, for example, doesn't need to give me precise information on what is possible with specific lore and medicine ratings on whether the diagnosis in perfectly accurate. Plurality and nebulous interpretation of a charm is one of its strengths, not its weakness.
                            Fan Wars 2: The Vocab Strikes Back!

                            Gotta go more with Kashi here personally. I like a little description just fine, but technical language is important in RPGs. The system is our grounding for the story. You don't have to go overboard with it, but that should be the priority over making each minor dice trick sound slightly different. (This got really annoying for me when trying to remember what War charms do what.) Perhaps giving it a line Spell Compendium style might help with this?

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                            • #29
                              Yeah, I basically have the feeling I'm not going to play Ex3 for a long time, simply because I just can't be arsed to read through the book. It's unpleasant and a slog too read through. And I'm the guy that takes FFG corebooks to bed.

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                              • #30
                                I think the point about following the design to fill in gaps goes along two paths:

                                ​People have complained about the idea of certain Abilities not having Charms of a certain Essence level; not that those Charms weren't written, but that they don't exist. That's the obvious place for things like homebrew.

                                There are Abilities with different mechanical conceits to Charms built into them because the stakes are different; for instance, lack of things like easily repeatable double-9s in combat Abilities, because it would be too powerful. That's the kind of space that shouldn't be filled out, and might be either picked up by people with the savvy to recognise the trend, or realised when they try to add changes in play.

                                I'd say the latter also plays into the mechanical distinctions between entire Charm cascades for the combat Abilities, since they're ones that are really competing for similar results. It's like, if Archery is designed to deal out consistent damage but build Initiative slowly at range and have poor defensive options up close, compared to, say, Melee as having good consistent attack and defense up close but limited ranged options, it's probably not the best idea to greatly improve Archery's initiative building at range and defensive options.



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