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[2E, 2.5E] How to import the Social Influence System from Ex3?

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  • [2E, 2.5E] How to import the Social Influence System from Ex3?

    One of the things that really talked to me in Ex3 is the new social influence system.

    While the core mechanic of that system seems to be possible to import almost as is, it also ties into Charms and The Great Curse (and thus have an overlap with Virtues).

    I have not read through the charms of Ex3 yet. As I understand it, there are several charms that can be fueled by an intimacy. Howver, to make it as a minimal change as possible for now, my thought is to only modify those social charms in 2.x that wouldn't make sense with an inimacy based social mechanic.

    I'm thinking of keeping the Virtues, and keeping The Great Curse being connected to that.

    By keeping Virtues, I think they should have some meaning in a social influence system. So it will probably need some sort of rewrite.

    Some ideas I'm pondering:
    A. Just letting the Virtue be used as an extra intimacy when defending against an influence, by spending a "Virtue token". Maybe by requiring the Virtue to be at 2+, where a 2 can be used as a minor intimacy, 3 as a major, and 4-5 as a defining. Quickest fix, but missing how a high Virtue can be used against the character during an influence attempt.

    B. Basically A, but where the Virtue can be used as a very broad and loosely defined intimacy (what Ex3 actually has a recommendation against) without spending a point. Probably where 3 is a minor, 4 a major and 5 a defining. Perhaps also combining it with A, so the Virtue can also be used as a stronger intimacy when resisting.

    C. Rewriting the Virtues completely, where the value in the middle means nothing at all, so it is a sliding scale between two opposites, making it into an intentional "under the hood" core attitude that can make it both harder or easier to resist an influence attempt.

    Any thoughts or ideas?

  • #2
    Leave virtues in for combat charms, or just use it word for word. Virtues rarely came up in my Exalted 2e games anywho.


    Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
    Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
      Leave virtues in for combat charms, or just use it word for word. Virtues rarely came up in my Exalted 2e games anywho.
      Well, I want to see virtues as an underlying current of personality (why C is even an option). Social interactions, diplomacy, reshaping cultures and all that stuff are really a main appeal of Exalted for me.

      So not letting it have a mechanical significance (which I later might ignore, as with all mechanics ) in an influence attempt just feel weird to me.

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      • #4
        Suggestion - Combine Virtues and intimacies.

        Virtues only really had 3 levels of relevance anyway. 3 dots, 4 dots or 5 dots. 1-2 dots and it straight up didn't matter to your character so;

        Virtues rated at 3 dots are considered Minor Principles, 4 dots are Major and 5 are Defining, in so far as they interact with the social system. Virtues rated 1-2 are ignored.

        Best of both worlds?


        (10chars)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
          Suggestion - Combine Virtues and intimacies.

          Virtues only really had 3 levels of relevance anyway. 3 dots, 4 dots or 5 dots. 1-2 dots and it straight up didn't matter to your character so;

          Virtues rated at 3 dots are considered Minor Principles, 4 dots are Major and 5 are Defining, in so far as they interact with the social system. Virtues rated 1-2 are ignored.

          Best of both worlds?
          That is what I tried to explain with option B. I think that would be the easiest way to bring it in. Then by having "normal" intimacies, it refines it more (as why a high compassion slaver don't have to be a contradiction).

          After all, having three dots in a Virtue is to have a strong general feeling about something. That would mean a five dot Virtue being very dominating over ones life.

          It also fit my view of why there is a requirement for a 3+ Virtue for a Celestial Exaltation.

          But as I mentioned in my first post. There is a specific warning in Ex3 against having to broadly defined intimacies. But my own guess there is that it is important it is used in both directions.

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          • #6
            I think this'll probably have some obvious problems deeper in the system and is relatively complex, but:

            - Virtues get levels Defining, Major, Minor instead of the 5 dot set up
            - Virtues aren't treated as intimacies in their own right, combine with intimacies such that Major Virtue + Major Intimacy can be treated as Defining Intimacy, Minor Virtue + Minor Intimacy can be treated as Major Intimacy

            Does mean you would need some "super-defining" level (or bumping defining down), I think though. Rules of thumb would be Conviction applies to pretty much all Principles, Compassion to almost all positive ties.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
              I think this'll probably have some obvious problems deeper in the system and is relatively complex, but:

              - Virtues get levels Defining, Major, Minor instead of the 5 dot set up
              - Virtues aren't treated as intimacies in their own right, combine with intimacies such that Major Virtue + Major Intimacy can be treated as Defining Intimacy, Minor Virtue + Minor Intimacy can be treated as Major Intimacy

              Does mean you would need some "super-defining" level (or bumping defining down), I think though. Rules of thumb would be Conviction applies to pretty much all Principles, Compassion to almost all positive ties.
              While not sure yet it would fit me, it definitely sounds like an option. I guess it at least would some mechanic added on how to gain Limit (unless using the Ex3 version).

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              • #8
                Some more musing, or rambling...

                When it comes to charms, I have been thinking a bit on how to remake TABOO-INFLICTING DIATRIBE to fit an imported social influence system from Ex3. I like the idea of being able to change the values of a society, culture or sub-group, through this charm. However, I have not really liked the 2ed implementation.

                I noticed that TABOO-INFLICTING DIATRIBE has become a Bureaucracy charm in E3, affecting people in an organization the Solar manages. So that one wouldn't fit anyway.

                The 2ed version is "talk to people for several hours during a month, then make a passionate speech.

                I think I would like at least two options: one where the Solar seeds the idea, then makes a passionate speech like in the original idea; then a second one where the Solar keeps working with the seeding, until it takes hold. The first one being more "cost effective", while the other one can be done more covertly.

                Two options.
                1. It is one charm, and it is kind of based around that an idea can work like a virus. It is about getting enough "infection" into the group, so its "immune system" is overwhelmed and the idea takes hold. If not enough people are "infected", it will reject the idea. So it can be done by going around to "infect" several individuals, one at a time, or a large group at once.

                2. The covert option is another charm that has the overt one as a prerequisite.

                However, I'm also thinking about perhaps a culture could be described by a set of intimacies that culture happens to have. The Charm could then be used to change the cultural intimacies.

                I'm thinking of something like this...

                A minor intimacy for a culture would be lead to people looking funny at the one breaking it, or even a mild stigma, but having people breaking of contact would be the exception.

                A major intimacy for a culture would ostracize the person going against the intimacy. Most people would break of contact, being harassed would be fairly common, and there is a risk of being attacked or even killed by extremists.

                A defining intimacy for a culture would be one where most people would pick up pitchforks to run the one breaking it out of the area, and staying would most likely mean a lynch-mob. Or being locked up for a long time in a more modern society.

                The intimacy can be either defined as something that should be done, or as something that shouldn't be done.

                If two intimacies conflicts, it depends on how they conflict. "No sex outside of wedlock" and "no marriages" isn't really opposite each other and would just be "no sex" and "no marriages". On the other hand, if there also is an intimacy about producing children and there is no artificial way to induce pregnancies, they have a direct conflict (well, the sex drive would already give them one, but anyway...), and something have to give. However, this can be by splitting up in several sub cultures and then one will climb to the top; or perhaps they will come up with an excuse how any pregnancy isn't from sex but a gift from somewhere, all the while they are boinking each other in secret.

                A sub-culture can have it's own set of cultural intimacies, but that could make it at odds with the main culture. A culture can however have a specific intimacy to accept or overlook the difference, either generally or specific, and thereby not clash with the other culture.

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