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Banish the Lesser Fiend

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  • Banish the Lesser Fiend

    Circle: Terrestrial
    Cost: 20sm, 1 wp
    Duration: Instant

    This spell is used when killing a particular demon is, for whatever reason, impractical or undesirable. After gathering the needed sorcerous motes, the caster attempts the same banishing roll as specified for Demon of the First Circle. If successful, the demon is banished back to its origin. If not, the demon remains in Creation, and is likely quite angry at the would-be banisher. A sorceror who knows this as a control spell can banish entire groups of demons at once, rolling against the highest Willpower in the targetted group. The group can include as many additional demons as the caster's Essence + Occult.

    Similar techniques exist for banishing stronger demons, costing 25sm, 2 wp to banish second circle demons or 30sm, 3 wp for third circle demons.

  • #2
    Probably shouldn't be able to use the higher-circle versions to banish multiple higher-circle demons. If Octavian and Mara have teamed up to take you on, it'd be kinda anticlimactic to explode them back to Hell with one spell like that.


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    • #3
      Looks good! I agree with Alucard though, maybe a different sig benefit for 2nd circles/3rd circles.

      I also think that, even if it's your signature charm, there should some bonus to the demon's resolve for there being multiple demons, like in 2nd ed.

      Also, it might be worth having some rolls about how banishing multiple demons interacts with battle groups. Perhaps it could reduce a battle groups size by 1 on a successful roll, and the demons could add their Size to their Resolve?


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      • #4
        Not bad thoughts. I'll consider them for the next revision.

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        • #5
          How the control spell effect for 2nd/3rd demons stops them from entering Creation for a period of time, either by the own volition or by summoning.


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          • #6
            Really I'm not so big on the control benefit of even the Terrestrial version - a Dawn still has a pretty rough time when fighting five blood apes, provided they're represented as individuals and not a battle group. Perhaps the sorcerer can attempt to banish a battle group of First Circle Demons with a Size no greater than his Essence as the control benefit?


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            • #7
              Except that gives no control spell benefit to mortal sorcerors. I already considered it.

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              • #8
                Something was removed from a previous edition. Maybe ask yourself 'is there a reason this is gone' before just homebrewing it back in.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fenrir666 View Post
                  Something was removed from a previous edition. Maybe ask yourself 'is there a reason this is gone' before just homebrewing it back in.
                  This is my thought. I'm not saying the spell is automatically a bad idea, but there may be a thematic point to removing it.

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                  • #10
                    Demon banishment was removed intentionally. I can't remember WHICH developer interview it was, but one of the devs stated that they didn't think that the sorcerer throwing motes at a demon for one action was a good story for a demon run-in.

                    On the other hand, it's kind of silly when the famed demonologist with Occult 5 and a thousand spells can get wrecked by a single blood ape because they aren't good at sword. Surely, occultists need to have SOME power against creatures of the occult.

                    There's probably some agreement between these two ideals. Unfortunately, I think this spell leans far too heavily on the side of removing the narrative potential of demonic enemies. I wish I had some input on making a better solution, but I'm lacking in ideas at the moment. It's a goal worth pursuing, though.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
                      Except that gives no control spell benefit to mortal sorcerors.
                      Battle groups can be Size 1. Why couldn't they be?


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by realbrickwall View Post
                        Demon banishment was removed intentionally. I can't remember WHICH developer interview it was, but one of the devs stated that they didn't think that the sorcerer throwing motes at a demon for one action was a good story for a demon run-in.

                        On the other hand, it's kind of silly when the famed demonologist with Occult 5 and a thousand spells can get wrecked by a single blood ape because they aren't good at sword. Surely, occultists need to have SOME power against creatures of the occult.

                        There's probably some agreement between these two ideals. Unfortunately, I think this spell leans far too heavily on the side of removing the narrative potential of demonic enemies. I wish I had some input on making a better solution, but I'm lacking in ideas at the moment. It's a goal worth pursuing, though.
                        I think the solution there is Occult charms.

                        Maybe it's best if we provide feedback for the OP from the perspective of "Assuming you want this kind of spell in your game..." ?

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                        • #13
                          I generally agree that spell banishment is not a great idea. That said, if you are going to have this spell, I'd say the costs should all be +1wp so that it's actually a drain on the sorcerer if successful, and if it fails then you can't use it on the same demon again.

                          I also agree that banishing multiple demons should be as a battle group.


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                          • #14
                            Yeah, an Occult specialist has some pretty awesome tools for dealing with spirits. Which Demons categorically are.


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                            • #15
                              20sm is ridiculous. Keep in mind that you have to roll (INT + Occult) for sorcerous motes. It would take a maxed out Solar two or three turns to cast this spell, while mortals can only generate 3 or 4 sm a round.

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