Occult - Sorcery Charms (Homebrew) [PEACH]

[Asoral]

Now that I have thought about it, giving Solars charms that give them access to more shaping rituals and control spell effects is kinda clever way of making them "the mightiest sorcerers" without super overpowering effects from charms, maybe with an added dash of dice tricks that would be a nice, altho a bit maybe mechanically boring, way of doing that. Altho I feel that ST's should be careful when looking at the rituals their players take so that they don't just take the most mechanically powerful ones, since I assume it wouldn't be really that hard to make your (especially control) spells a bit too easy to and maybe even free to cast if you really stack things.

But having a mighty sorcerer have multiple daily rituals that help keep them powerful is a deliciously pulpy concept all in all

Have to go over the balance of the charms a bit more in depth, but to me they seem to be pretty balanced and achieving the little something as a player playing a sorcerer Twilight I felt the Occult charm set really needed to make it actually worth sinking deep into as a sorcerer instead of just supernaling Lore for superior sorcerous charms.

[Erinýes]

Reading on another thread got me thinking, would it break the game to give SHEDDING INFINITE RADIANCE to EX3 Twilights?

Making it an Occult Charm with probably Mins Occult 3 and Essence 4 and making the sm reduction the higher of 3 or Essence x2.

I'm not very good (not to say not good at all) with 3rd Ed. mechanics so if anyone could tell me if this would be a terrible idea or not I'd apreciate it

[Daerian]

I think it would be. I'm much more for more rituals and dices, but directly decreasing costs is too strong. It would also make most spells pretty much instant cast, removing any chance at failure (and with Charms here it already is hard to fail cast on first or for more costly spells second round of Shaping).
If you want SIR you would need to remove most additional dice/motes gathering effects from my Charms instead.
And it's still better, practically meaning always avalible, free (Essence x 2) automatic, non-dice successes on every shape sorcery roll.

[Erinýes]

Yes, I wrote the post and even then it sounded better in my head then when I put it up in writting. It's not the charm itself but the synergy with existing Charms and Shapping rituals. And yeah your charms deal with most (if not all) problems I had with EX3 Twilights.

[Maudova]

Over the next week I may continue to take a crack at these. This is my honest attempt to critique these charms in a way I think is balanced mechanically and fits thematically within the solar paradigim.

So I like the direction of this charm quite a bit. It fits the theme of someone investing energy into unlocking sorcerous power. Pushing the limits is definitely within the Solar theme.

Wellspring of Knowledge Unknown
...
Prerequisite Charms: Supernal Control Method, Terrestrial[sic] Circle Sorcery

I think the prerequisite needs to include actually knowing enough spells to take advantage of this effect upon purchase. It doesn't fit the them of solar power to be forced into taking a control spell just because you happen to take a spell after you learn a charm.

If there is one thing Copper Spiders are known for, it’s their thirst for knowledge. Always looking for answers and new information, no Solar Sorcerer would be content with knowledge already learned, trying to always expand what she knows, nor would she wait for enlightenment.

This sounds more like a Lore charm description and I think this should be two separate charms. One for Shaping rituals and related merits and one set of charms for Control Spells. I'll address shaping rituals in another post.

Upon learning this Charm Solar gains an[sic] additional Shaping Ritual and chooses[sic] (Essence) spells she knows from Terrestrial[sic] Circle – they become her additional Control Spells. If she doesn’t know enough spells, the next spell she learns become her additional Control Spell if applicable. If not, the spell after. Each time she rises in Essence to level that would grant her additional Control Spell, she choose one from spells known.
At E4 this Charm automatically upgrades if the Sorcerer knows Celestial Circle Sorcery, granting one additional Sorcerous Ritual and the same upgrades to (Essence/2, rounded up) Celestial Circle spells, with the same rules as before for acquisition.
At E5 if the Sorcerer known Solar Circle Sorcery she gains one additional Sorcerous Ritual and changes one additional spell from Solar Circle into her Control Spell, with the same rules as before for acquisition.

I think the upgrades should not be automatic upgrades but optional repurchases.
I would say the essence min for the first is essence 2 not 3, adding the prerequisite of knowing two terrestrial circle spells eligible to be control spells and changing the benefit to grant 1 additional control spell and adding essence to the distortion goal for all control spells selected for the circle this charm is purchased for and +1 to all other non-control spells.
The essence 4 repurchase requires that you know enough terrestrial and celestial circle spells to be eligible to apply this benefit to, granting one additional terrestrial control spell and one for celestial circle.
The essence 5 repurchase adds one additional Terrestrial and Celestial circle control spell plus grants 1 additional Solar Circle control spell.
In the end the total effect at essence 5 adds 3 terrestrial controls spells, 2 celestial, and 1 Solar in addition All control spells have [essence] goal number added to their distortion effect and all other spells have a +1 distortion goal number.
The reason I would think these changes should be made to the charm are simple, no where in the charm set theme do solars master an effect they do not know, also sorcery is hard work. I think having 5 additional terrestrial, 3 celestial, and 2 Solar is a bit too much as all permanent bonuses should be purchased with experience.

Additionally, if Occult is Supernal Ability of the Solar, this Charm permanently decreases prerequisite Essence required for learning Celestial and Solar Circle Spells to 2 and 4 Essence, respectively.

I think this is an extraordinarily powerful effect for a single charm purchase and the difference you are injecting into the power scale of a sorcerer for early purchase of celestial and solar circle sorcery is 75 and 100 xp respectively (15 and 20 games). The game is not balanced to allow supernal occult to purchase sorcery earlier otherwise supernal occult would be able to do that. I'd strike this from the charms effect altogether.

Comment: Control spells and their changing, permanent effects on character are cool so I consider giving more of them interesting way to power and at the same time make Sorcerer more distinctive character. It might seem as diminishing each Sorcerer uniqueness, but in my opinion if strengthens it, even allowing player to choose spells for purely cosmetic effects, like having cool shadows of butterflies around character without getting stink eye from rest of players (and player’s own inner power gamer) for not taking OP Mist of Eventide control effect. Be however wary if there are more than one dedicated Sorcerer in party (unlikely event, I think).
Additionally, this Charm makes it possible to learn CCS and SCS faster without having to write it down in growing list of every group houserules.

The effects of control spells are not minor. In some cases you get evocations for your spells. Since you cannot be disarmed of spells you can never lose those evocations, but due to the nature of twilight charms you can indeed change them.

Overall I think you were in going in a really cool direction with this charm it was just a little over powered.

[satoshi]

Learning Sorcery at an effective +1 essence is a really big buff, IIRC one of the Dev's said it wouldn't break anything huge, but it does instantly make occult supernal almost required for a sorcerer which was one of the things they were deliberately trying to avoid in this edition. As someone who is currently playing a character with more shaping rituals / control spells than normal due to how my ST ruled exalting after being a mortal sorcerer worked I can verify that having an extra shaping ritual and control spell isn't really a huge deal, nice, and worth a charm purchase, but not earth-shaking.

[Daerian]

I think the prerequisite needs to include actually knowing enough spells to take advantage of this effect upon purchase. It doesn't fit the them of solar power to be forced into taking a control spell just because you happen to take a spell after you learn a charm.

I'm not exactly sure what is problem here thematically - it's the same as choosing your first Spell ever as Control Spell when learning Emerald Circle Charm. You learn Spells you want most first (put of character) or spells you learn first shape your sorcerous ways (in character).

This sounds more like a Lore charm description and I think this should be two separate charms. One for Shaping rituals and related merits and one set of charms for Control Spells. I'll address shaping rituals in another post.

It's not really my fault that Occult encompasses not only Sorcery, but also both knowledge of unknown coming from studies and instinctual knowledge of unknown. Occult as Ability itself is getting close to Lore in part of "unknown knowledge". I have written why I consider this Charm as one package and don't consider it too powerful before, but will answer to you below :-)

I think the upgrades should not be automatic upgrades but optional repurchases.

I'm not sure if I have written it here or in another topic, but I personally hate repurchases of Charms - I consider them pretty dull and annoying, exponentially increasing Charm bloat and not really fun to buy. You can of course break this Charm into repurchases for your use if you consider it unbalanced, but I'm not going to do it.

I would say the essence min for the first is essence 2 not 3, adding the prerequisite of knowing two terrestrial circle spells eligible to be control spells and changing the benefit to grant 1 additional control spell and adding essence to the distortion goal for all control spells selected for the circle this charm is purchased for and +1 to all other non-control spells.

Essence 3 is there specifically to make Occult Supernal more interesting choice for Sorcerers and as Essence level when you can learn Sapphire Circle - so the level when your Essence is strong and refined enough to reach greater Sorcerous mastery.
Additionally, I don't really want to add more Spells to prerequisites - you still need to get these Spells to utilize Charm to it's fullest potential, but you can also buy it for Shaping Rituals and/or faster Sorcery if you wish.

The reason I would think these changes should be made to the charm are simple, no where in the charm set theme do solars master an effect they do not know, also sorcery is hard work. I think having 5 additional terrestrial, 3 celestial, and 2 Solar is a bit too much as all permanent bonuses should be purchased with experience.

They master new Spells as the learn them, internalizing them much stronger than normal Sorcerers. They know the effect when they master it.

I think this is an extraordinarily powerful effect for a single charm purchase and the difference you are injecting into the power scale of a sorcerer for early purchase of celestial and solar circle sorcery is 75 and 100 xp respectively (15 and 20 games). The game is not balanced to allow supernal occult to purchase sorcery earlier otherwise supernal occult would be able to do that. I'd strike this from the charms effect altogether.

I don't think so and I have opinion of one of developers that doing this as house rule with Supernal Occult is not a problem, so I see no problems with making it a part of Charm that must be purchased. Personally I see a problem with allowing everyone but Sorcerers their E5 toys at low Essence.

The effects of control spells are not minor. In some cases you get evocations for your spells. Since you cannot be disarmed of spells you can never lose those evocations, but due to the nature of twilight charms you can indeed change them.

Yes, but you can often get Distorted while using these spell, often changing your advantage into dangerous disadvantage.

Overall I think you were in going in a really cool direction with this charm it was just a little over powered.

Thanks a lot for kind words, but I think this Charm is balanced - it doesn't really do that much until you buy a lot of different things and raise your Essence.

Learning Sorcery at an effective +1 essence is a really big buff, IIRC one of the Dev's said it wouldn't break anything huge, but it does instantly make occult supernal almost required for a sorcerer which was one of the things they were deliberately trying to avoid in this edition.

Yes, instead they made Occult Supernal almost useless for Sorcerers, which is even worse in my opinion. Additionally, I don't see any problem with Occult being almost mandatory for Sorcerer, it's like talking that it's bad that Melee (or maybe MA if you want Kenshin) is mandatory for swordsman, Archery for archer, Brawl is mandatory for wrestler or Sail for ship captain.

[Maudova]

I'm not exactly sure what is problem here thematically - it's the same as choosing your first Spell ever as Control Spell when learning Emerald Circle Charm. You learn Spells you want most first (put of character) or spells you learn first shape your sorcerous ways (in character).

It seems like you would at least need to know the spell to master it to the point of it being a control spell. That first spell you choose initiating into the emerald circle is the spell that essentially shapes your understanding of sorcery. I think having a "hanging" control spell an instant master of the next spell you learn is not thematic to exalted. Exalted push limits, master the unmasterable, through action not just automagically.

It's not really my fault that Occult encompasses not only Sorcery, but also both knowledge of unknown coming from studies and instinctual knowledge of unknown. Occult as Ability itself is getting close to Lore in part of "unknown knowledge". I have written why I consider this Charm as one package and don't consider it too powerful before, but will answer to you below :-)

True it isn't your fault. I am just performing a PEACH for you as the title is asking for.

I'm not sure if I have written it here or in another topic, but I personally hate repurchases of Charms - I consider them pretty dull and annoying, exponentially increasing Charm bloat and not really fun to buy. You can of course break this Charm into repurchases for your use if you consider it unbalanced, but I'm not going to do it.

Fair enough. As it stands in my opinion is that this charm is overpowered without repurchases.

I don't think so and I have opinion of one of developers that doing this as house rule with Supernal Occult is not a problem, so I see no problems with making it a part of Charm that must be purchased. Personally I see a problem with allowing everyone but Sorcerers their E5 toys at low Essence.

Well I would say if it works for your game to Supernal Occult to Sorcery then go for it. I don't think it needs to be tinkered with through charm use. I actually wondered myself why Sorcery wasn't granted an easier path via supernal occult.

Yes, but you can often get Distorted while using these spell, often changing your advantage into dangerous disadvantage.

You can say the same thing about a melee focused character being disarmed.

Thanks a lot for kind words, but I think this Charm is balanced - it doesn't really do that much until you buy a lot of different things and raise your Essence.

Yes, instead they made Occult Supernal almost useless for Sorcerers, which is even worse in my opinion. Additionally, I don't see any problem with Occult being almost mandatory for Sorcerer, it's like talking that it's bad that Melee (or maybe MA if you want Kenshin) is mandatory for swordsman, Archery for archer, Brawl is mandatory for wrestler or Sail for ship captain.

I'd say again I agree with the Devs if you want occult supernal to give circles of sorcery early go for it.

[Daerian]

It seems like you would at least need to know the spell to master it to the point of it being a control spell. That first spell you choose initiating into the emerald circle is the spell that essentially shapes your understanding of sorcery. I think having a "hanging" control spell an instant master of the next spell you learn is not thematic to exalted. Exalted push limits, master the unmasterable, through action not just automagically.

For me it's thematic - you are a Solar, a master of abilities. When you learn a new Spell you pour your Excellence into it, mastering it beyond what other Sorcerers would gain.

Fair enough. As it stands in my opinion is that this charm is overpowered without repurchases.

As I explained before, I don't really consider this Charm overpowered, because it doesn't really give you anything special (you can learn new Rituals in story, you need Occult Supernal to really gain faster Sorcery bonuses, you need Spell to make them Control Spells) without buying other things. It's pretty much power enabler, not really useful by itself, you need to buy other things to really make it work - so in my opinion, it balances itself in this way.

Well I would say if it works for your game to Supernal Occult to Sorcery then go for it. I don't think it needs to be tinkered with through charm use. I actually wondered myself why Sorcery wasn't granted an easier path via supernal occult.

As I said, this is in Charm to make it easier to remember and not have to make new list of house rules when starting first game. In this way it's easier to went to GM with list of custom Charm for approval instead of getting list of house rules, Charms, Spells and something else probably to approve.

You can say the same thing about a melee focused character being disarmed.

Well, not really. Disarming character allows him to summon weapon back or get another easily - you as Sorcerer however cannot dismiss Distorted Spells and gains strong weakness for it (for example, distorted Body of Bronze can pretty much kill you).

[Maudova]

Refinement of Knowledge Unknown
Cost: —; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 3
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Wellspring of Knowledge Unknown, All-Encompassing Sorcerer’s Sight
The Copper Spiders are greatest Sorcerers know to the world, and their knowledge of unknown laws and powers are unmatched. Add (higher of Essence or three) non-Charm bonus dice to Solar’s spell effects and any Occult rolls which involves dealing with Spirits or different realms of existence (for example, Wyld or Malfeas). These dices cannot be added to Shaping Sorcery rolls.
Additionally, knowing this Charms always counts as +1 Means for Sorcerous Workings.
This Charm specifically does not stack with Heaven-Turning Calculations.
Comment: Better than Heaven-Turning Calculations for Sorcerer, worse for omni disciplinary Twilight. [/I]

This looks great I like the flavor, and its a great addition to a sorcery focused solar. One thing I am curious about is what made you shift the mechanic from Heaven-Turning Calculations adding essence to the roll? Adding the higher of essence or 3 is making the charm more powerful than printed material of comparable effect/level. I would put this one solidly with HTC by changing that to match HTC.

[Daerian]

This looks great I like the flavor, and its a great addition to a sorcery focused solar. One thing I am curious about is what made you shift the mechanic from Heaven-Turning Calculations adding essence to the roll? Adding the higher of essence or 3 is making the charm more powerful than printed material of comparable effect/level. I would put this one solidly with HTC by changing that to match HTC.

Thanks. I gave it (Essence or 3) because this Charm is useful in lesser amount of situations than HTC, so I strengthened it in this way to make it faster option to power for Sorcerers, which makes this Charm more desirable if you want to boost Sorcery - however, at the same time this is far less useful for Lore or Craft Twilight. Because of more narrow applications (well, HTC is probably to broad in its applications, but it's official Charm...) a little boost in power for starting players was in my opinion a good way of balancing.

[Maudova]

Spiritual Principles Understanding
Cost: (+2m) ; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 3
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Supernal Control Method, Burning Exorcism Technique
Calling upon Spirits she studied, the Solar Sorcerer can apply principles of studied Essence to shaping her own vision of Creation.
While activating Ancient Tongue Understanding, the Solar can pay additional 2 motes. If she does, when Ancient Tongue Understanding is active, the Lawgiver can add 1 dice to all her Shaping Sorcery and Wyld-Shaping rolls for every spirit familiar she has or spirit she has bound with Burning Exorcism Technique. She can add up to her (Essence) dice. These dice are considered non-Charm dice when casting her Control Spells.
Comment: Works better for Twilights, but doesn’t give them anything others cannot attain if they wish, which is show I want Sorcery to work.

This as a stand alone charm is actually quite good and thematic with twilight caste sorc. I think its a little over powered combined with "Wellspring of Knowledge Unknown"

[Maudova]

Inner Forge of Spiritual Enlightenment
Cost: - ; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 3
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Wellspring of Knowledge Unknown
As the Sorcerer knowledge grows, she becomes more and more attuned to the world and its Essence, internalizing principles of Sorcery into herself.
Upon learning this Charm Sorcerer gains special pool of sorcerous motes, one mote for every spell she knows, up to a maximum of ten sorcerous motes. She can spend these motes while casting any spell or effect requiring sorcerous motes. Initially empty, she can fill this pool in two ways:
First, when resting she can decide to not regain Willpower and instead roll (Occult) dice, adding 1 sorcerous motes to her pool for every success rolled. This roll cannot be supported by other magic.
Secondly, when casting a spell with fixed mote cost she can add all threshold successes on Shaping Sorcery roll (in another words, all Sorcerous motes gathered beyond cost of the spell) to her inner pool. She will however suffer 1 level of bashing damage for each two motes internalized in this way, as she pull raw forces into herself. If the Lawgiver has willing spiritual familiar or bound demon in medium range of her, she can Reflexively make them suffer that cost instead.
The Sorcerous motes in this pool last until next time Sorcerer rest enough to be viable for regaining willpower or until she loses consciousness.
Comment: Inner pool of magic – pretty standard thing in my opinion, most Abilities have one, even if not called explicitly. Can be used as way to safely gain damage to transfer with Lore abilities, or send to bound demons or willing familiar (yes, familiar must be ok with that before you can do it) if Sorcerer doesn’t want risk.

I think this is a pretty cool charm. I do think it needs a cooldown/reset condition. Being able just shunt over success at a rate of 2 per bashing and then push that to a spirit or familiar ala Shadow Run Conjuring spirits type rules make this pretty easy to have zero side effects and free sorcerous motes.

[Maudova]

Words-as-Shield Method
Cost: 5m ; Mins: Essence 3
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Dual
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisite Charms: Inner Forge of Spiritual Enlightenment
As the Sorcerer masters her body and mind, forging them anew in flames of her inner power, she learns to channel her Essence outward, to protect herself from harm. This power materialize as semitransparent sphere around Sorcerer, often marked by hues of her anima.
When Sorcerer is taking shaping sorcery action she can activate this Charm and then gains (Occult + Intelligence + Essence/2, rounded down) soak until her spell is cast. This effect doesn’t stack with other magic or armor – use only the higher value. Against decisive attacks, this Charm provides (Intelligence) hardness or, if Sorcerer has Twilight anima power active, adds 2 to its power.
After spell is cast, this effect lingers until sorcerer’s next action and then subside after it, to return when Sorcerer takes her next Shape Sorcery action.
Special activation rules: If the Sorcerer knows Evocation of Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes Sorcerer’s Supreme Soul she can activate both powers at once, paying only 8m. Then she gains (Occult + Intelligence + Essence) soak, Hardness (Intelligence+1) or if Sorcerer has Twilight anima power active, add 3 to its power instead of normal bonuses, but all timing rules still apply. Additionally, both Withering and Decisive damage she receives is decreased by three as long as the shield is active.
Comment: My Evocation Sorcerer’s Supreme Soul from Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes has pretty much the same effect and I didn’t want to make it obsolete –hence special activation rules making knowing them both pretty much Charm and it’s upgrade purchases.

I think this is missing the Occult requirement in the prerequisites. A question on the mechanic of the soak enhancement, is this (Int + Occ + Essence)/2 or int + occ + (essence /2)? I know this is supposed to be a honest critique of the charms here, however I don't think the shielding evocation makes sense with the talisman of ten thousand eyes. While this evocation, if identical to the posted charm, activates with spells it doesn't directly enhance or alter spells nor does it enhance the senses.

pg. 470 ex3
"Evocations: Exalted sorcerers may master Evocations of the Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes. These Evocations typically enhance the wearer’s senses, both mundane and spiritual, or directly enhance or alter spells."

I would also consider the interaction with the talisman of ten thousand eyes sorcerous mote conversion combo with Wellspring of Knowledge Unknown to be over powered.

[Maudova]

Words-as-Swords Stance
Cost: 4m ; Mins: Occult 5, Essence 3
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: None
Duration: One scene
Prerequisite Charms: Inner Forge of Spiritual Enlightenment
Most Sorcerers prefer to avoid conflict, but not all of them will be always able to do so. These who try to raise their hands against Lawgiver will find their hands burned.
While this Charm is active, when the Sorcerer takes the first shape sorcery action to begin casting a spell treat that has direct damage component (examples from Core: Death of Obsidian Butterflies, Flight of Brilliant Raptor, Death Ray) Sorcerer can strengthen her spell and only then cast it - by gathering more sorcerous motes. She can gather up to (2 x Essence) more sorcerous motes before casting spell. Each 2 sorcerous motes gathered add 1 dice to spell damage.
Additionally, while this Charm is active the Lawgiver gains one point of Initiative for every two damage levels her spells deal, up to (Occult) points per spell cast. This Initiative is added to her pool instantly after cast if the spell doesn’t reset her Initiative or after Initiative reset if it does. If she incapacitate or render enemy unconscious (for example with Mist of Eventide effect) she gains additional point of Initiative.
Comment: Way for combat Sorcerers to build up Initiative for spells using it or defensive effects. This is effect I’m really not sure about.

I like this spell simply because it fills a niche that sorcerers are missing in spell casting. Mechanically speaking I think this should be a supplemental charm with a duration of one action. Though I am curious how you envision this interacting with Death Ray. This charm should also have split effects for withering and decisive attack spells having the dual keyword or possibly be perilous and only be allowed to function for decisive attack spells. Regardless it needs to have some keyword denoting its relationship to damage type to help cement it.