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OK, but Seriously Though...Where's My Exalted?

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  • I think that a big problerm is that while this is technically the third edition of exalted, it's not like say, D20 3.5 which was a change over the earlier engine. It's really a completely new game with completely new assumptions about how combat and other mechanical systems work, and because of that, other than the setting, your starting from a blank page. And that means that yeah, stuff is going to take longer, becuase you can't just grab the charms from Lunars and say: okay, let's jigger mote costs and then we're good.

    Thank god, because let's face it, things like that got us 2E that required nearly every writer to come do a patch job on the patch jobs that had been done before.

    So it's gonna take time. The problme of course, especially for people who already owned Exalted, is that we don't want to wait 2 years to play lunars. We want ot start our campaign now.

    If I have any complaints, one is that I think Exigents should have been made the second major book, simply because that owuld have made putting together home brew exalts to tide us over vastly easier.

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    • Looking at D&D editions and Exalted editions, I think the last three D&D edition changes were each about as significant as the E2-E3 change.

      Originally posted by RichT View Post
      Sorry you didn't like the fiction anthology. Did you read the final product or just the initial backer PDF?
      Dunno. It was a while ago, and not really worth remembering much about.

      Originally posted by RichT View Post
      As for other uses of the extra KS monies that we devoted to extra projects, one project, even one as successful as the EX3 KS, does not create a "living wage" scenario. But, by adding those projects, those projects provided additional freelance work for many more creators. In addition, those varied projects help us spread the word about the game line, and thus may help create a wider audience, better sales, and increased pay rates as a result.
      I do pay attention to the buzz online, and if anything I think those side projects have hurt your image. I rarely hear them discussed and when I do it's always negative.

      As for providing work to more people...you have a responsibility to the people you hire, but that doesn't mean you have a responsibility to hire people. And hiring more people to work on more projects does little or nothing to alleviate the inevitable issues that you get when your workers are underpaid and under-supported.

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      • Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
        Looking at D&D editions and Exalted editions, I think the last three D&D edition changes were each about as significant as the E2-E3 change.
        3rd and 4th editions were both very big changes, but 5th is very similar mechanically to 3.5. Tell anyone who's played a d20 system what proficiency and advantage are and they can play 5th no problems.


        Infernals - To Rule in Hell (complete first draft)
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        • I enjoyed the comic but would have swapped it for an equivalent number of preview pages in a heartbeat and I still genuinely think the refusal to give any mechanical previews for literally months at a time made zero sense. Not that it matters now I guess.

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          • As someone who does not work in the rpg business and has absolutely no knowledge of how the finances work, from the book treadmill days to now, all I do know is I backed Ex3 and Mummy:the Curse and the Mummy:the Curse Kickstarter. I am not usually a fiction anthology guy, though I absolutely LOVED the old WoD books for the most part back in the proverbial day. That said, Curse of the Blue Nile has been a fun read and I've seen some little comments here or there on the internet that suggest it's helped spread some positive buzz about M:tC. Likewise, I remember all the nasty comments on the Kickstarter( And on critical failure ) about small updates, about the anthology and about OP staff and associated writers. I am not interested in seeing that repeated, or reliving it. Thanks but no thanks.
            Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 07-27-2016, 07:48 AM.


            “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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            • Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
              Looking at D&D editions and Exalted editions, I think the last three D&D edition changes were each about as significant as the E2-E3 change.



              Dunno. It was a while ago, and not really worth remembering much about.



              I do pay attention to the buzz online, and if anything I think those side projects have hurt your image. I rarely hear them discussed and when I do it's always negative.

              As for providing work to more people...you have a responsibility to the people you hire, but that doesn't mean you have a responsibility to hire people. And hiring more people to work on more projects does little or nothing to alleviate the inevitable issues that you get when your workers are underpaid and under-supported.

              Might be worth your while to read the finished version, rather than basing your concerns off the first version we sent out expecting commentary that would provide errata and other changes.

              Our "workers" are paid better than most folks in the tabletop RPG business, although not everyone. As we continue to grow, we hope to change that. But the reality remains that no one can pay their creative crew more than the books are making in sales, and it is vital to keep all the costs in making our books within the scope of the earnings for those books, or we go under like so many RPG companies have in the past.

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              • Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
                Every now and then I find a bothersome add in this forum about a new WoD release. To the point in which I find daunting diving into those games because of the enormous quantity of supplements published.

                How can those games produce so much content? This isn't me saying that Ex3 should be as productive. This is me sicerely wondering what's the difference and really why is Ex3 taking so long in comparison? Are the WoD books all rushed garbage? Is Ex3 extremely superior in quality? Are there thousands of writers working on WoD books? Is OPP putting more focus on WoD?

                Does anybody know?
                In the case of the 20th anniversary editions, they are largely curating and rewriting older content, which helps. However, you are right that other lines are more productive in general.

                Anyway to address the OP, I'm going to say something a lot of people won't particularly like.

                Simply put, the game is hella behind schedule. Last year at GenCon there was a release schedule PDF, and it had long past dates for a couple books. I went through my Google Drive O' PDFs and couldn't find it for specific citation, unfortunately (maybe some other pack rat will find theirs). It's safe to say Ex3 is going to be on a long production cycle. Some people are going to shrug their shoulders and say they don't care about the wait. Some people are going to be up in arms about it. But, honestly none of that matters; the devs will release when they can/want to, and it's worth noting many steps of the process are completely out of their hands.

                There was some hope that Exalted would return to a faster release schedule after the core book. Given the amount of time spent on "errata" for the backer charms, it's safe to say that isn't happening. I don't say this to rag on the devs, or on forumites who have opinions about the delivery schedule one way or another. I'm just calling a spade a spade. 99.9% of the people working in the RPG industry do it as a side gig. If you want a game with a faster release schedule, OPP has you covered with other properties, certainly. There are also other companies that have a more rigid release schedule, though in some cases their quality is questionable.

                Also, you luckily enjoyed 2.5, so you might just do that. Sounds like in your case it's already paid for.

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                • Originally posted by Totentanz View Post
                  Simply put, the game is hella behind schedule. Last year at GenCon there was a release schedule PDF, and it had long past dates for a couple books. I went through my Google Drive O' PDFs and couldn't find it for specific citation, unfortunately (maybe some other pack rat will find theirs). It's safe to say Ex3 is going to be on a long production cycle. Some people are going to shrug their shoulders and say they don't care about the wait. Some people are going to be up in arms about it. But, honestly none of that matters; the devs will release when they can/want to, and it's worth noting many steps of the process are completely out of their hands.
                  I'll think you search for the Onyx Path 2015-2016 publishing Brochure found here.
                  It lists exigents for spring 2016, for example.

                  So yes, Ex 3rd seems to always be behind schedule.

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                  • Speaking on the fiction anthology, I haven't read much of the EX3 one, but the fiction anthologies for some of the CofD books really helped get me into those properties and give me ideas for games or characters I'd like to run in those properties. The Mage Anthology and the God-Machine Anthology got me really interested in that universe and I'm now setting up to storytell my first game ever with a Mortals CofD game. So I think they really can be good tools for generating hype or getting people interested in a property.

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                    • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                      I ran several dozen Exalted games and campaigns that lasted for years. I never had problems with Exalted's rules, such that we couldn't keep playing. Where we would run into problems was typically with individual Charms, Artifacts, or the interactions between different Charms and/or Artifacts which created effects that the author hadn't foreseen and that required ST adjudication, and ultimately some Exalted games didn't feel much fun because of those kinds of interactions.

                      Honestly, I'm rather curious, especially since this happened to you on quite a few occasions - what are some examples of the "wall of incomprehensible rules" that were so broken you literally were incapable of playing Exalted?
                      Mass combat, figuring out which Charms were bad/good/too good, mass combat, figuring out which Artifacts were bad/good/too good, mass combat, teaching new players to make characters, mass combat, interpreting Virtues, mass combat, practically processing the stunt system, mass combat, Alchemical Charm arrays, mass combat, calculating the right balance of committed vs. usable motes, mass combat. A lot of these fall into the category of things which seemed simple enough when I read through them, but which I then tried to implement and found really stressful to execute. Games often veered off the system rails and into what I referred to as "playing house": characters avoiding dramatic arcs and system challenges and just doing quiet day-to-day things that wouldn't trigger any rolls because we didn't want to have to figure out resource allocations and determine in what order to activate things.

                      If you made these things work, that's great, but I'm not very smart and I have a great deal of trouble balancing large numbers of different priorities that simultaneously funnel into role-playing decisions.


                      Currently Writing Scion and Geist for Onyx Path, and many other things for other publishers
                      Crowdfund Me Tha Illiad of MC Homer: a hip hop translation of Homer's Iliad

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                      • Originally posted by Lula View Post
                        If you made these things work, that's great, but I'm not very smart and I have a great deal of trouble balancing large numbers of different priorities that simultaneously funnel into role-playing decisions.
                        I didn't really find mass combat to be that difficult to understand, and if it was something that made your game come to a halt every time you tried to implement it, It's a fairly small widget of the game, and I'm surprised you kept trying to implement it over and over knowing that your game would instantly grind to a halt if you did. Many RPGs don't have have mass combat systems and just expect the ST to handwave things to a degree when you start having battles involving dozens or hundreds of enemies.

                        Other things like the stunt system seemed pretty straightforward (if you describe your action it's a 1 dot stunt, if you describe your action in an interesting way that involves the environment it's a 2 dot stunt, if you describe your stunt in a way that makes other players say, "Neat!" it's a 3 dot stunt). I honestly don't know how that's hard to process.

                        And stuff like "calculating the right amount balance of committed vs usable motes," is just a matter of personal preference. There's not right or wrong way to do it. Some people would prefer to have a bunch of useful artifacts and commit lots of Essence. Other people prefer to have no artifacts and have all of their Essence available for Charms. Each person would have a different answer to that, so I don't know how that's something that could make the game literally unplayable.

                        I mean, granted there may have been a few issues here and there, but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that Exalted 2nd edition's rules made the game literally unplayable when thousands of RPG groups spent a decade playing the game just fine. I think your problems may have been more with how you approached the game, which may have magnified the problems inherent in the game, than with the game itself. But, I have no idea how you and your group approach roleplaying games, so I have no idea.

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                        • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          I mean, granted there may have been a few issues here and there, but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that Exalted 2nd edition's rules made the game literally unplayable when thousands of RPG groups spent a decade playing the game just fine. I think your problems may have been more with how you approached the game, which may have magnified the problems inherent in the game, than with the game itself. But, I have no idea how you and your group approach roleplaying games, so I have no idea.
                          Like I said earlier in the setup to the statement you quoted, I don't get to generalize about this game, or any game, except in the context of my personal experience. I can't say what the game was like for you and thousands of RPG groups. I can just say what happened at our tables.


                          Currently Writing Scion and Geist for Onyx Path, and many other things for other publishers
                          Crowdfund Me Tha Illiad of MC Homer: a hip hop translation of Homer's Iliad

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                          • What I am reading from this seems that OPP and the Exalted team are currently slowed down significantly because of "synergy" problems. I almost hate to use that word as it is such a buzz word in business at the moment, but I cannot see a better word to describe that problem as I am understanding it. Now I don't have a good solution to synergy problems (and if I did I would be teaching it to other businesses at a premium.) BUT it seems to me that as OPP grows and moves forward that some investment in some kind of infrastructure might be a good idea.

                            The whole "mama needs new shoes" from earlier shouldn't be an issue.

                            Professionally I save the world, and am just wetting my toes into the book publishing industry with the impending release of my first book "Hazardous Waste Operations and Emergency Response." And my eyes have been opened quite a bit as to what happens between manuscript and finished project. In fact networking with OPP writers and developers actually helped me quite a bit, but I digress.

                            The issue here seems to be one of equipment and training. If I need to hire someone to move soil for me, then I would allow them to use the Yellow Iron I already possess. If I employ an individual to track shipments of hazardous waste then I provide that individual with access to our system. It would seem to me that providing freelancers with licenses for software (perhaps through logins to a shared computer network) or requesting that the product they deliver to you be in a specific file format might be something that would help OPP a LOT in the future. The Exalted kickstarter raised just north of 675 thousand dollars. A small infrastructure investment would likely pay off immensely.

                            OPP only makes money (in the long run) when they publish books. And any way those books can be published faster will only increase the total income of OPP and the profit margin per project as well.

                            I have capital. I want OPP to deliver more products to me that I may purchase. I recognise that synergy is hard, but from a customer point of view it is frustrating that a company that has created 20 Kickstarter projects, and delivered more than double that in high quality (really, by and large wonderful) books are still struggling with these issues.

                            I LOVE Exalted. Holden, John, and crew have truly created a new edition for a project that has brought me a lot of happiness and entertainment already. By and large the other lines from OPP are also fantastic, and I really applaud Rich Thomas for all of the hard work he has done to make me, and tens of thousands of other gamers like me happy and entertained. I just want more.

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                            • Originally posted by RichT View Post
                              Might be worth your while to read the finished version, rather than basing your concerns off the first version we sent out expecting commentary that would provide errata and other changes.
                              I might have read the finished version already; like I said I don't recall.

                              And I'm not keen to find out, honestly. There are a lot of stories I could be reading which I haven't read, or which were non-terrible when I read them.

                              Originally posted by RichT View Post
                              Our "workers" are paid better than most folks in the tabletop RPG business, although not everyone. As we continue to grow, we hope to change that. But the reality remains that no one can pay their creative crew more than the books are making in sales, and it is vital to keep all the costs in making our books within the scope of the earnings for those books, or we go under like so many RPG companies have in the past.
                              That's exactly why I complain about adding unnecessary extra costs like those stretch goals.

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                              • As I already said, said Stretch Goal rewards are not unnecessary and not something that alters what folks can and do get paid.

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