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OK, but Seriously Though...Where's My Exalted?

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  • Originally posted by Epee102 View Post
    As someone who's looked into freelance writing and is studying it for his major, unless your a pulp writer in the `1920s, all freelance writing jobs are "barely paid second jobs". Its just not a thing that can be supported. If someone's writing not-novels or equally popular fiction(screenwriting, comics, etc) for money, then they are in for a bad time.
    I'm well aware. And my perception is that this situation has caused a number of issues for Exalted.

    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    No, a pay bump on EX3 itself was part of the EX3 KS. Twice I think, in fact. Rates are ongoing things that apply across the company for all the work a freelancer does.
    Apologies, I missed that distinction. Mostly because it doesn't really matter to what I'm saying here.

    You apparently didn't pay the Ex3 writers enough to have the right to expect professionalism. Unsurprisingly, the resulting book took years longer than you expected it to. In fact, it's still not fully out. I suspect that your lousy employment practices are partially responsible, and that treating your employees a bit better would've helped a lot.

    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    If a freelancer posts that their pay rate caused problems with delivering a project, that's their legitimate personal take on a situation. When we say that there is a difference between full-time creative staffs and teams of freelancers that are doing their RPG work as a second or third job (which is most of our folks), and this can cause problems, pay rates are not usually the issue. Usually it is available time.
    The time constraints are a direct result of not being paid enough to spend less time on other jobs.

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    • Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
      Let 'em whine. The right thing to do remains right no matter how much people complain about it.
      I want the devs (and every other human) to live well off work they enjoy. Get out in the streets and seize the means of production if you want that to happen. Telling Rich to pull money out of his ass doesn't solve anything.


      When all the world was very young
      And mountain magic heavy hung
      The supermen would walk in file
      Guardians of a loveless isle

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      • Not his ass. His music, fiction, comics, etc, budget.

        I've been pretty clear about this, I think.

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        • Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
          Not his ass. His music, fiction, comics, etc, budget.

          I've been pretty clear about this, I think.

          This is unhelpful. Those things were stretch goals and likely generated more revenue than they cost. It is like when a nonprofit will get criticized for wining and dining a potential donor. If you spend $2,500.00 on dinner for a donor and they make a $50,000.00 donation, then that is a gain. I don't think the margins are as large, but the idea is the same. Stretch goals generate interest and interest generates Kickstarter backers who generate capital.

          There is a difference between not understanding the industry and being obtuse.

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          • You're talking about taking maybe a few thousand dollars that went to various other freelance writers, illustrators, and musicians and instead spreading it among multiple devs & writers over a period of years. I'm sure they'd appreciate that or any money, but it's not enough. Putting John, Holden, Lucy, Minton, Vance, & SLS to work full time on Exalted would cost at least $200,000 per year just to compensate them minimally.


            When all the world was very young
            And mountain magic heavy hung
            The supermen would walk in file
            Guardians of a loveless isle

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            • I would be genuinely shocked if those generated enough money to pay for themselves.

              My memory's not perfect so far back, but I don't remember any excitement about those. And now that they exist, they're either ignored or insulted.

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              • We get it, Sanctaphrax, you don't like them. Personally, I think that map is gorgeous, and can't wait to get my hands on one of those color-canvas beauties.

                That map, you'll recall, is one of the bonuses. As are rather a lot of the illustrations, martial arts styles, sorcery, and so on.
                Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 07-27-2016, 06:58 PM.

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                • I'm rather grateful this managed to get posted on the first page, but I'm bringing it up again just as a reminder.

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                  • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                    I'm rather grateful this managed to get posted on the first page, but I'm bringing it up again just as a reminder.
                    "Im too rich to ever fail so follow my advice if you are already rich."

                    The quote is meaningless because it cuts both ways. The Dev team and OPP are not entitled to the communities good graces or money after the general drama, issues meeting deadlines, and the handling of any of the issues brought up by the project. At the end of the day Neil Gaiman and George are household names who can whether any storm. The Exalted Team is minuscule and will never have the, to quote a billionaire game designer, "Fuck You Money" To tell its customer base where to shove their expectations.

                    Which is shocking because they dev team Keeps Doing It.

                    Comment


                    • There's actually an interesting kind of contrast there.

                      ​People like Gaiman and Martin are so financially secure that, barring some unlikely major disaster, failings or delays in their art as a result of whatever personal matters will not really harm them.

                      Your modern rpg writer or creator will never make enough off of it, barring some unlikely major personal success, that failings or delays in their art as a result of whatever personal matter will also not really harm them.

                      Since I'm fully aware of my own ignorance regarding how various things function, I'm going to trust the people who actually do this professionally (as opposed to for a living), and have done so for decades with the idea that the occasional crowdfunding would not really be sufficient to actually make a viable paying career out of rpg writing.

                      Suggesting that things like music suites or maps or fiction anthologies aren't really about making money at all; they're about promoting the art, and developing the community.

                      Maybe a kickstarter whose stretch goals consisted of no rewards for the backers at all and was nothing about promised (one-off) pay rises for the writers is still something that people would pay as much money towards; I don't know, I've seen very few kickstarters.

                      Maybe even if such a thing were the least bit viable, on either count, Onyx Path would prefer to use the occasion of things like a new edition of a game or an anniversary celebration to gather money that can be used to pay for nice things for the fans.

                      But this is just idle speculation on my part. Ultimately, it is not the end of my or anybody else's world when the thing finally gets made, if ever. Don't get me wrong, I would still like the leather bound book eventually, but I have not purchased any part of the line following that, so regardless of how very much I enjoy discussing the subject of the game, its ultimate existence is tangential.

                      Based on enough past experiences (such as the other Onyx Path lines and their Kickstarters that supposedly incompetent RichT is also ultimately responsible for managing), I trust that things are not being comically mismanaged. As in, the money to pay for the books to be fabricated was spent on a house mismanaged.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (updated 02/03)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post

                        I'm well aware. And my perception is that this situation has caused a number of issues for Exalted.



                        Apologies, I missed that distinction. Mostly because it doesn't really matter to what I'm saying here.

                        You apparently didn't pay the Ex3 writers enough to have the right to expect professionalism. Unsurprisingly, the resulting book took years longer than you expected it to. In fact, it's still not fully out. I suspect that your lousy employment practices are partially responsible, and that treating your employees a bit better would've helped a lot.



                        The time constraints are a direct result of not being paid enough to spend less time on other jobs.
                        You really, really seem to be uninterested in learning anything and only in whatever bad information has gotten lodged in your craw. There's no point in my continuing to try and explain the reality of any of this to you. Later.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sanctaphrax View Post
                          Not his ass. His music, fiction, comics, etc, budget.

                          I've been pretty clear about this, I think.
                          I was perfectly okay with the two pay bump stretch goals. I would not be ok with every stretch goal being "pay the writers more". Specially not a the cost of the additional art, the music suite, the cloth map, the 50% increase to Sorcery wordcount, and Arms of the Chosen and The Realm being full color. I'm just one person, maybe everyone else would have been fine with that, but it would have made me completely remove my $575 pledge.


                          You need a picture altered to fit your Exalted character, or just looking for some visual inspiration? Check out the twice-reborn Exaltification thread. And here is my Deviantart page

                          Søren Kierkegaard + Kim Kardashian = Brilliance

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                          • Does it count as beating a dead horse if the horse has been beaten into a pile of goo?


                            SWTOR Referal: http://www.swtor.com/r/JQ2nqy

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                            • There is a difference between learning and agreeing with you, Richard.

                              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                              We get it, Sanctaphrax, you don't like them. Personally, I think that map is gorgeous, and can't wait to get my hands on one of those color-canvas beauties.

                              That map, you'll recall, is one of the bonuses. As are rather a lot of the illustrations, martial arts styles, sorcery, and so on.
                              The map is nice. Not sure it was worth the money, but it may have been.

                              As for the fiction and comic, even near-universally positive people like yourself rarely say anything more than "I liked half of it". And the music is bizarrely late.

                              Not sure what the Gaiman quote has to do with the conversation at this point, since I don't think anyone here is demanding faster releases anymore.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gallus View Post
                                Does it count as beating a dead horse if the horse has been beaten into a pile of goo?
                                It's the thought that counts.


                                Mouse monk riding a tiny pig avatar courtesy of the very talented forumite Jen!

                                Jen's original portrayal of Mouse Monk, featuring some human or other named Tybalt Farwander.

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