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​Spun off from 'A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-through of Ex3' - Sidereal Excellency

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  • #16
    Originally posted by IgnisDomini View Post

    If I recall correctly, in 2e Sidereals could spend 10m, 1wp for an "Auspicious Success." meaning all dice are treated as successes.
    4m1wp in 2e Sidereals. I wouldn't want this as a generic mechanic because while it might be functional for some things [stealth, crafting, etc], it's dangerous ground for others [melee, brawl, occult (sorcery)].

    I'm of the opinion that Holden and Morke are smart guys who won't ruin the game forever, and will have clever plans for this. An example of which might be a paucity of dice-modification in the Sidereal set, instead being primarily effect driven, such that the Heroic Swordsman with nothing but his burning ambition to master the blade [Solar, Melee favored, 1+ dots] will find himself having trouble against the Master of Fate for whom everything flows perfectly as if the world itself bent to his whims [Sidereal, Melee favored, 1+ dots]...

    ...but then he starts picking up his charms, and he gets an auto success and reroll 1s [Excellent Strike], bonus situational successes and noncharm dice [Rising Sun Slash], cheap parries based on his opponent's roll [Hail-Shattering Practice], etc. While the Sidereal gets... effects, like "parry bad language" or whatever, and maybe reroll [Essence] 1s, maybe get a single bonus success under very exacting conditions, etc. So while the Sidereal gets all sorts of impressive Effects, the Solar wins out with all the little ways his charmset tweaks the roll, having a free 1/scene full excellency, and so on, while ALSO getting effects like "Summon sun-hot blade of light", "hit everyone around me", "send an arc of burning energy to smite my foe", etc.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by putty View Post
      The sidereal excellency is too strong for a player character with a bucket of charms, but its fine for antagonist quick characters where their powers are even more abstracted than a normal PC. Luckily, Vance confirmed that all the antagonist excellencies are provisional and subject to change.

      Which is great, I'm sure that the excellency we'll get in the Sid book will be fine. But wastevens is making a Sidereal homebrew, so he needs to come up with a good excellency before then.

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      • #18
        Alright, some possibilities:

        - TN reduction, but instead of +(Essence) as a limit, it's +(Essence/2). Also, TN reduction should probably cost 2m/die?

        - TN reduction, but Sidereals can't buy dice, they can only buy successes, and can only buy (Essence/2) successes for 2m each.

        - TN reduction, but they can only buy 1 extra die, and only if they have an applicable specialty. (Let low mote cost be the main upside)

        - Let Essence 5 Sidereals have a better dice cap; by Essence 5, the closed and restrictive Sidereal Charm set will be causing them plenty of problems compared to a Solar.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

          What if we combine this with an earlier thought? Example Sidereal has (Ability) points to distribute between TN reduction (to TN 4) and adding dice. How does that math out?

          This maths the same as the Essence 5 Sidereal distribution points between TN reduction and bonus dice (for the cases I'm looking at anywho)


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          • #20
            Originally posted by SuperG View Post
            Alright, some possibilities:

            - TN reduction, but instead of +(Essence) as a limit, it's +(Essence/2). Also, TN reduction should probably cost 2m/die?
            Do you mean +(Essence /2) dice cap, or did you mean TN reduction having a limit of (Essence)?

            Originally posted by SuperG View Post
            - TN reduction, but Sidereals can't buy dice, they can only buy successes, and can only buy (Essence/2) successes for 2m each.
            There's a risk in allowing success purchasing of trivializing some tasks; it's a space I've been leery of exploring, let alone for something as general as an excellency.

            Originally posted by SuperG View Post
            - TN reduction, but they can only buy 1 extra die, and only if they have an applicable specialty. (Let low mote cost be the main upside)
            Eeeh. Tying specialties to excellencies is kind of in the Dragonblooded experience.

            Originally posted by SuperG View Post
            - Let Essence 5 Sidereals have a better dice cap; by Essence 5, the closed and restrictive Sidereal Charm set will be causing them plenty of problems compared to a Solar.
            My inner Solar fanboy is sad at other people having higher ceilings than Solars.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Aranfan View Post


              Which is great, I'm sure that the excellency we'll get in the Sid book will be fine. But wastevens is making a Sidereal homebrew, so he needs to come up with a good excellency before then.

              I mean- that's *accurate*, but it's also just an interesting problem to explore, and one that I hadn't really thought about- I'd been operating on the assumption that the Sidereal excellency was fine as-is, until folks in the parent thread convinced me to check the math.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by wastevens View Post


                This maths the same as the Essence 5 Sidereal distribution points between TN reduction and bonus dice (for the cases I'm looking at anywho)
                Then doesn't that solve the con from the essence based version?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

                  Then doesn't that solve the con from the essence based version?
                  It hits the sweet spot more easily, but is still more mathy than I'm really happy with for something as foundational as an Excellency.

                  (Frankly, I'm looking a little skeptically at the Liminal's excellency-based-on-anima-flare at least a little dubiously)


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SuperG View Post

                    - Let Essence 5 Sidereals have a better dice cap; by Essence 5, the closed and restrictive Sidereal Charm set will be causing them plenty of problems compared to a Solar.
                    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                    My inner Solar fanboy is sad at other people having higher ceilings than Solars.
                    I'm a Sidereal Fangirl, but I'll have to agree that throwing large buckets of dice at a problem is Solar's thing. I'd prefer Sidereals with lower dice caps and having to use indirect means to succeed at their goals. But I say this with the expectation that Sidereals will have many more charms than previous editions and some basic utility charms the other splats have. (Seriously, Sidereals can't hid their weapons in elsewhere?)


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                      It hits the sweet spot more easily, but is still more mathy than I'm really happy with for something as foundational as an Excellency.

                      (Frankly, I'm looking a little skeptically at the Liminal's excellency-based-on-anima-flare at least a little dubiously)
                      It isn't that mathy, is it?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Crumplepunch View Post
                        I don't think this is really a problem that needs solving provided that the proportionately greater power of adding dice to Attribute+Ability rolls is kept in mind in Sidereal Charm design. I have seen E2 Dragon-Bloods give Solars a run for their money with only excellencies in play, it's really not that big a deal.
                        I agree. These are solutions in search of a problem.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ferryman View Post

                          I agree. These are solutions in search of a problem.

                          And I disagree; a Sidereal with three bonus dice (IE Essence 3) pulls notably ahead of a Solar with a full excellency, spending fewer motes and getting a comparable ceiling and better overall median results. This is exasperated by higher Essence or other sources of non-charm dice (such as accuracy on weapons for withering attacks)

                          Now, is this a problem on the same order as, oh, perfect-or-die from 2e? Not remotely!
                          Is this a problem for your game in particular? Probably not!

                          But it is an interesting question; is there a way to express the Sidereal TN modifying excellency which gives them greater reliability but still doesn't bust them past the Solar's in anticipated ceiling? What are the parameters and limitations on such a thing? What is the simplest way such a thing could be expressed?


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

                            It isn't that mathy, is it?
                            I have a *really* low bar for how mathy something can be when it's as foundational as an excellency.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                              I have a *really* low bar for how mathy something can be when it's as foundational as an excellency.
                              Then at least we have a baseline. Whatever you adopt can't be more math intensive than the ability option.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wastevens View Post
                                And I disagree; a Sidereal with three bonus dice (IE Essence 3) pulls notably ahead of a Solar with a full excellency, spending fewer motes and getting a comparable ceiling and better overall median results. This is exasperated by higher Essence or other sources of non-charm dice (such as accuracy on weapons for withering attacks)

                                Now, is this a problem on the same order as, oh, perfect-or-die from 2e? Not remotely!
                                Is this a problem for your game in particular? Probably not!

                                But it is an interesting question; is there a way to express the Sidereal TN modifying excellency which gives them greater reliability but still doesn't bust them past the Solar's in anticipated ceiling? What are the parameters and limitations on such a thing? What is the simplest way such a thing could be expressed?
                                Concur with this entirely. One of the lessons 2e taught was that there's very, very little as important, at the end of the day, as the size of your affordable dice pools. That's what made Infinite Masteries the rock on which Celestial power was built, it's the reason that elder and deathlord stats made them virtually unkillable, and it's exactly the reason that both of those things are gone in Third.

                                "Just how hard can Sidereals dicewhomp?" is a pretty critical question.


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