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​Spun off from 'A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-through of Ex3' - Sidereal Excellency

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  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by AtG View Post
    Yep. And because it's critical, the answer should be simple, easy to compare to other splats, and appropriate relative to the other Celestial exalts.

    "Sidereal dice pools are smaller but more reliable" is a cute thematic goal that is just absolutely not worth the problems with balancing this incredibly fundamental mechanic.
    Strongly disagree.

    Or, put another way- the *easy* solution is 'Sidereals add successes rather than dice, at 2m / success, and can add up to (Essence) successes. That gives them strict parity, higher floor and lower ceiling. In many ways, it's a very attractive solution, and if all else fails, that's an option. Finding an acceptable TN monkeying solution that also satisfies those criteria is significantly harder.

    But hard doesn't mean impossible. Easy to compare to other splats is a nice goal, but not neccesary- I don't actually care if the Sidereal Excellency *looks* stronger or weaker, I care about how it functions on 10,000 rolls. The Sidereal schtick has always been monkeying with target numbers; I want to see that continue in an acceptable fashion.

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  • AtG
    replied
    Originally posted by Irked View Post
    Concur with this entirely. One of the lessons 2e taught was that there's very, very little as important, at the end of the day, as the size of your affordable dice pools. That's what made Infinite Masteries the rock on which Celestial power was built, it's the reason that elder and deathlord stats made them virtually unkillable, and it's exactly the reason that both of those things are gone in Third.

    "Just how hard can Sidereals dicewhomp?" is a pretty critical question.
    Yep. And because it's critical, the answer should be simple, easy to compare to other splats, and appropriate relative to the other Celestial exalts.

    "Sidereal dice pools are smaller but more reliable" is a cute thematic goal that is just absolutely not worth the problems with balancing this incredibly fundamental mechanic.

    Solars can easily add 10 dice.

    Lunars can easily add 5 dice, and can add 10 dice with minimal roleplay effort (an appropriate stunt) and the slightly more restrictive constraint of need two Attributes at 5.

    I say Sidereals should be able to add 10 dice as well, with restrictions of similar strength to those Lunars face.

    It is far less hazardous to put Sidereals on an even dice-footing and express the themes and strengths through other charms, than to try to given them a baseline mathematical disadvantage and compensate them with stronger charms.

    If you want thematics, make it College-based.

    Some possibilities:
    1. You can add +College if your actions are within the scope of that Constellation, or +2 * College if you are under a Destiny of that Constellation
      1. Possibly "a Resplendant Destiny" although that awkwardly handicaps Sidereals not currently under one (maybe a good idea?)
    2. You can add +College if you're within scope, and with a stunt add +Other College if the actions are also within that scope
    3. You can always add +Essence, and add +College within scope
      1. (This makes younger Sidereals noticeably weaker, which might be a problem)
    4. You can add +Ability, and then add +College if within scope / under a destiny
    Just... please don't try to use TN modification, or permanently keep Sidereals below +10 dice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Irked
    replied
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post
    And I disagree; a Sidereal with three bonus dice (IE Essence 3) pulls notably ahead of a Solar with a full excellency, spending fewer motes and getting a comparable ceiling and better overall median results. This is exasperated by higher Essence or other sources of non-charm dice (such as accuracy on weapons for withering attacks)

    Now, is this a problem on the same order as, oh, perfect-or-die from 2e? Not remotely!
    Is this a problem for your game in particular? Probably not!

    But it is an interesting question; is there a way to express the Sidereal TN modifying excellency which gives them greater reliability but still doesn't bust them past the Solar's in anticipated ceiling? What are the parameters and limitations on such a thing? What is the simplest way such a thing could be expressed?
    Concur with this entirely. One of the lessons 2e taught was that there's very, very little as important, at the end of the day, as the size of your affordable dice pools. That's what made Infinite Masteries the rock on which Celestial power was built, it's the reason that elder and deathlord stats made them virtually unkillable, and it's exactly the reason that both of those things are gone in Third.

    "Just how hard can Sidereals dicewhomp?" is a pretty critical question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

    I have a *really* low bar for how mathy something can be when it's as foundational as an excellency.
    Then at least we have a baseline. Whatever you adopt can't be more math intensive than the ability option.

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

    It isn't that mathy, is it?
    I have a *really* low bar for how mathy something can be when it's as foundational as an excellency.

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by Ferryman View Post

    I agree. These are solutions in search of a problem.

    And I disagree; a Sidereal with three bonus dice (IE Essence 3) pulls notably ahead of a Solar with a full excellency, spending fewer motes and getting a comparable ceiling and better overall median results. This is exasperated by higher Essence or other sources of non-charm dice (such as accuracy on weapons for withering attacks)

    Now, is this a problem on the same order as, oh, perfect-or-die from 2e? Not remotely!
    Is this a problem for your game in particular? Probably not!

    But it is an interesting question; is there a way to express the Sidereal TN modifying excellency which gives them greater reliability but still doesn't bust them past the Solar's in anticipated ceiling? What are the parameters and limitations on such a thing? What is the simplest way such a thing could be expressed?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ferryman
    replied
    Originally posted by Crumplepunch View Post
    I don't think this is really a problem that needs solving provided that the proportionately greater power of adding dice to Attribute+Ability rolls is kept in mind in Sidereal Charm design. I have seen E2 Dragon-Bloods give Solars a run for their money with only excellencies in play, it's really not that big a deal.
    I agree. These are solutions in search of a problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

    It hits the sweet spot more easily, but is still more mathy than I'm really happy with for something as foundational as an Excellency.

    (Frankly, I'm looking a little skeptically at the Liminal's excellency-based-on-anima-flare at least a little dubiously)
    It isn't that mathy, is it?

    Leave a comment:


  • wonderandawe
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperG View Post

    - Let Essence 5 Sidereals have a better dice cap; by Essence 5, the closed and restrictive Sidereal Charm set will be causing them plenty of problems compared to a Solar.
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

    My inner Solar fanboy is sad at other people having higher ceilings than Solars.
    I'm a Sidereal Fangirl, but I'll have to agree that throwing large buckets of dice at a problem is Solar's thing. I'd prefer Sidereals with lower dice caps and having to use indirect means to succeed at their goals. But I say this with the expectation that Sidereals will have many more charms than previous editions and some basic utility charms the other splats have. (Seriously, Sidereals can't hid their weapons in elsewhere?)

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

    Then doesn't that solve the con from the essence based version?
    It hits the sweet spot more easily, but is still more mathy than I'm really happy with for something as foundational as an Excellency.

    (Frankly, I'm looking a little skeptically at the Liminal's excellency-based-on-anima-flare at least a little dubiously)

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post


    This maths the same as the Essence 5 Sidereal distribution points between TN reduction and bonus dice (for the cases I'm looking at anywho)
    Then doesn't that solve the con from the essence based version?

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by Aranfan View Post


    Which is great, I'm sure that the excellency we'll get in the Sid book will be fine. But wastevens is making a Sidereal homebrew, so he needs to come up with a good excellency before then.

    I mean- that's *accurate*, but it's also just an interesting problem to explore, and one that I hadn't really thought about- I'd been operating on the assumption that the Sidereal excellency was fine as-is, until folks in the parent thread convinced me to check the math.

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperG View Post
    Alright, some possibilities:

    - TN reduction, but instead of +(Essence) as a limit, it's +(Essence/2). Also, TN reduction should probably cost 2m/die?
    Do you mean +(Essence /2) dice cap, or did you mean TN reduction having a limit of (Essence)?

    Originally posted by SuperG View Post
    - TN reduction, but Sidereals can't buy dice, they can only buy successes, and can only buy (Essence/2) successes for 2m each.
    There's a risk in allowing success purchasing of trivializing some tasks; it's a space I've been leery of exploring, let alone for something as general as an excellency.

    Originally posted by SuperG View Post
    - TN reduction, but they can only buy 1 extra die, and only if they have an applicable specialty. (Let low mote cost be the main upside)
    Eeeh. Tying specialties to excellencies is kind of in the Dragonblooded experience.

    Originally posted by SuperG View Post
    - Let Essence 5 Sidereals have a better dice cap; by Essence 5, the closed and restrictive Sidereal Charm set will be causing them plenty of problems compared to a Solar.
    My inner Solar fanboy is sad at other people having higher ceilings than Solars.

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

    What if we combine this with an earlier thought? Example Sidereal has (Ability) points to distribute between TN reduction (to TN 4) and adding dice. How does that math out?

    This maths the same as the Essence 5 Sidereal distribution points between TN reduction and bonus dice (for the cases I'm looking at anywho)

    Leave a comment:


  • SuperG
    replied
    Alright, some possibilities:

    - TN reduction, but instead of +(Essence) as a limit, it's +(Essence/2). Also, TN reduction should probably cost 2m/die?

    - TN reduction, but Sidereals can't buy dice, they can only buy successes, and can only buy (Essence/2) successes for 2m each.

    - TN reduction, but they can only buy 1 extra die, and only if they have an applicable specialty. (Let low mote cost be the main upside)

    - Let Essence 5 Sidereals have a better dice cap; by Essence 5, the closed and restrictive Sidereal Charm set will be causing them plenty of problems compared to a Solar.

    Leave a comment:

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