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​Spun off from 'A Not-Quite-Newb's Read-through of Ex3' - Sidereal Excellency

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  • Aranfan
    replied
    Originally posted by putty View Post
    The sidereal excellency is too strong for a player character with a bucket of charms, but its fine for antagonist quick characters where their powers are even more abstracted than a normal PC. Luckily, Vance confirmed that all the antagonist excellencies are provisional and subject to change.

    Which is great, I'm sure that the excellency we'll get in the Sid book will be fine. But wastevens is making a Sidereal homebrew, so he needs to come up with a good excellency before then.

    Leave a comment:


  • Meianno Yuurei
    replied
    Originally posted by IgnisDomini View Post

    If I recall correctly, in 2e Sidereals could spend 10m, 1wp for an "Auspicious Success." meaning all dice are treated as successes.
    4m1wp in 2e Sidereals. I wouldn't want this as a generic mechanic because while it might be functional for some things [stealth, crafting, etc], it's dangerous ground for others [melee, brawl, occult (sorcery)].

    I'm of the opinion that Holden and Morke are smart guys who won't ruin the game forever, and will have clever plans for this. An example of which might be a paucity of dice-modification in the Sidereal set, instead being primarily effect driven, such that the Heroic Swordsman with nothing but his burning ambition to master the blade [Solar, Melee favored, 1+ dots] will find himself having trouble against the Master of Fate for whom everything flows perfectly as if the world itself bent to his whims [Sidereal, Melee favored, 1+ dots]...

    ...but then he starts picking up his charms, and he gets an auto success and reroll 1s [Excellent Strike], bonus situational successes and noncharm dice [Rising Sun Slash], cheap parries based on his opponent's roll [Hail-Shattering Practice], etc. While the Sidereal gets... effects, like "parry bad language" or whatever, and maybe reroll [Essence] 1s, maybe get a single bonus success under very exacting conditions, etc. So while the Sidereal gets all sorts of impressive Effects, the Solar wins out with all the little ways his charmset tweaks the roll, having a free 1/scene full excellency, and so on, while ALSO getting effects like "Summon sun-hot blade of light", "hit everyone around me", "send an arc of burning energy to smite my foe", etc.

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  • IgnisDomini
    replied
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post
    Other musing-

    * Max you can reduce TN = Ability rating. At Ability 5, can instead purchase 'perfect' success (all dice are treated as successes, costs a Willpower or something).
    If I recall correctly, in 2e Sidereals could spend 10m, 1wp for an "Auspicious Success." meaning all dice are treated as successes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post
    Other musing-

    What if TN reduction is decoupled from Essence entirely, and is based on Ability rating?

    * Max you can reduce TN = Ability rating. At Ability 5, can instead purchase 'perfect' success (all dice are treated as successes, costs a Willpower or something).

    PROS: Easy, more similar to other Exalt types (coupled to ability instead of Essence); fits the 'lower ceiling but more consistent result' very cleanly.
    CONS: Ability 4 puts you in an odd space; at TN 3, successes > dice become a non-trivial probability (which is presumably why perfect success was previously at 'If TN would be reduced below 4')

    Test for Sidereal with 0 bonus dice (TN 3)
    Code:
    Out of 10000 attempts
    4  :    2  (0%)
    5  :   11  (0%)
    6  :   26  (0%)
    7  :  126  (1%)
    8  :  302  (3%)
    9  :  835  (8%)
    10 : 1406 (14%)
    11 : 1923 (19%)
    12 : 1995 (20%)
    13 : 1614 (16%)
    14 : 1026 (10%)
    15 :  488  (5%)
    16 :  178  (2%)
    17 :   47  (0%)
    18 :   19  (0%)
    19 :    2  (0%)
    ----
    Number of dice: 13, target number: 3, double number: 10, bonus dice: 0, bonus successes: 0, dice min/max 1/10
    Top  5%: 15
    Top 20%: 13
    Top 33%: 13
    Top 50%: 12
    Top 67%: 11
    What if we combine this with an earlier thought? Example Sidereal has (Ability) points to distribute between TN reduction (to TN 4) and adding dice. How does that math out?

    Leave a comment:


  • AtG
    replied
    Originally posted by Irked View Post
    Initial thought: overprice TN reduction - say, 3m for TN 6, 7m total for TN 5, 12m total for TN 4. Sidereals can pull enormous successes out, but they can't do it reliably, particularly with their small mote pools.

    Not sure I love that, though, because for me the biggest question is, "How do they do at hitting Def 12 with a Decisive?" That's the point where things will come crashing down, if they do. ("How do they do with a light Withering weapon?" is right behind it.) And even if it's pricey to throw a TN 4 attack, if you can do it and virtually guarantee a hit - I mean, you may be broke, but the other guy is plausibly dead.
    This is why I think something as fundamental to Exalted math as Excellencies / dice caps is the worst possible place to put wonky mechanics like TN reduction.

    Leave a comment:


  • wastevens
    replied
    Other musing-

    What if TN reduction is decoupled from Essence entirely, and is based on Ability rating?

    * Max you can reduce TN = Ability rating. At Ability 5, can instead purchase 'perfect' success (all dice are treated as successes, costs a Willpower or something).

    PROS: Easy, more similar to other Exalt types (coupled to ability instead of Essence); fits the 'lower ceiling but more consistent result' very cleanly.
    CONS: Ability 4 puts you in an odd space; at TN 3, successes > dice become a non-trivial probability (which is presumably why perfect success was previously at 'If TN would be reduced below 4')

    Test for Sidereal with 0 bonus dice (TN 3)
    Code:
    Out of 10000 attempts
    4  :    2  (0%)
    5  :   11  (0%)
    6  :   26  (0%)
    7  :  126  (1%)
    8  :  302  (3%)
    9  :  835  (8%)
    10 : 1406 (14%)
    11 : 1923 (19%)
    12 : 1995 (20%)
    13 : 1614 (16%)
    14 : 1026 (10%)
    15 :  488  (5%)
    16 :  178  (2%)
    17 :   47  (0%)
    18 :   19  (0%)
    19 :    2  (0%)
    ----
    Number of dice: 13, target number: 3, double number: 10, bonus dice: 0, bonus successes: 0, dice min/max 1/10
    Top  5%: 15
    Top 20%: 13
    Top 33%: 13
    Top 50%: 12
    Top 67%: 11

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghosthead
    replied
    Useless comment: In an ideal world, I think this would solve more by making that technically higher ceiling the Solar has really count; so it can give them advantages they can really press when they roll higher than anyone else can, and they can downplay the consequences of the corresponding lower reliability through defenses and general ass saving Charms. High risk, high reward, with superb recovery Charms negating much of the risk part of it to leave them all round quite a bit better.

    That said, this is fundamentally a useless comment (that I nevertheless felt compelled to make) because the Solars are done and if they're not like that (presumably for good reason!), they're not like that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Irked
    replied
    Originally posted by Aranfan View Post

    I've done some test cases with 11 dice and TN 4. The second roll had 12 successes. Most of the time it rakes in around 10 sux. I've only done about 5 tests tho', so take my results with appropriate salt.
    The stats above suggest that 13 dice hits TN 12 only 20% of the time, which feels safe; on the other hand, 16 dice (at E3) hits 2/3 of the time, which feels a little strong, even at a high price.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    Originally posted by Irked View Post
    Not sure I love that, though, because for me the biggest question is, "How do they do at hitting Def 12 with a Decisive?" That's the point where things will come crashing down, if they do. ("How do they do with a light Withering weapon?" is right behind it.) And even if it's pricey to throw a TN 4 attack, if you can do it and virtually guarantee a hit - I mean, you may be broke, but the other guy is plausibly dead.
    I've done some test cases with 11 dice and TN 4. The second roll had 12 successes. Most of the time it rakes in around 10 sux. I've only done about 5 tests tho', so take my results with appropriate salt.

    Leave a comment:


  • Irked
    replied
    Initial thought: overprice TN reduction - say, 3m for TN 6, 7m total for TN 5, 12m total for TN 4. Sidereals can pull enormous successes out, but they can't do it reliably, particularly with their small mote pools.

    Not sure I love that, though, because for me the biggest question is, "How do they do at hitting Def 12 with a Decisive?" That's the point where things will come crashing down, if they do. ("How do they do with a light Withering weapon?" is right behind it.) And even if it's pricey to throw a TN 4 attack, if you can do it and virtually guarantee a hit - I mean, you may be broke, but the other guy is plausibly dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    I like the willpower idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crumplepunch
    replied
    I don't think this is really a problem that needs solving provided that the proportionately greater power of adding dice to Attribute+Ability rolls is kept in mind in Sidereal Charm design. I have seen E2 Dragon-Bloods give Solars a run for their money with only excellencies in play, it's really not that big a deal.

    If I were compelled to make a fix, I would increase the cost of TN reduction in some fashion. Either increasing the mote cost for each TN reduction (1m for TN6, 3m for TN5, 6m for TN4), making it a flat 2m per point of reduction or requiring a point of willpower to reduce TN.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aranfan
    replied
    I lean towards the Second option. Sidereals should be weaker than Solars on average, IIRC. The Unconquered Sun is the god of unsurpassed excellence, while the Five Maidens aren't.

    Maybe make it E+1 points to use between Dice and TN?

    Leave a comment:


  • AtG
    replied
    Meh, make the Sidereal excellency similar to the Lunar: normally you can add, say, +Essence, but if you stunt you can add +College or something.

    Leave a comment:


  • putty
    replied
    The sidereal excellency is too strong for a player character with a bucket of charms, but its fine for antagonist quick characters where their powers are even more abstracted than a normal PC. Luckily, Vance confirmed that all the antagonist excellencies are provisional and subject to change.

    Leave a comment:

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