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  • #31
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    You know, that might actually be the reason.
    Fictional pregnancies often get dragged out for the sake of drama and you've got way bigger problems if you as a player feels forced to deal with it.

    Edit: Incidentally, I really hope Fire Has Wrought gets some kind of extension of the Red Rule for arranged marriage and breeding expectations.

    I guess I'm thinking about this from a rpg perspective. If a player doesn't want to be forced to deal with the side effects of pregnancy, then the character/character's partner won't get pregnant or if the player wants their character to have a child, we will time skip the pregnancy part. If the character wants to deal with the pregnancy in game, I think nine months in game (maybe one or two story arcs) is enough time to deal with the pregnancy.

    Of course my games lean towards action adventure or courtly intrigue. In the first type, pregnancy would be a side plot and only happen at the request of the player. In the latter type, offspring, both legitimate and illegitmate, are a big part of being a power player at court. I'll never force a pregnancy plot on the character, but inheritance and heirs are topics that will discussed in courtly games.

    Yes, the Red Rule should cover Dragonblooded breeding and arranged marriage.
    Last edited by wonderandawe; 08-12-2016, 05:10 PM.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

      ​How many of those are taking place on-screen?

      If it isn't happening on screen, they why waste the word count on pregnancy being 15 month instead of the usual 9 months. Why change the duration of pregnancy if it doesn't matter in game?

      Seriously, power fantasy is a big part of the Exalted game experience. I don't have a power fantasy of being pregnant for fifteen months, and I don't think many other men* and woman would either.

      *Because men can play female characters too.
      Last edited by wonderandawe; 08-12-2016, 05:07 PM.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post


        If it isn't happening on screen, they why waste the word count on pregnancy being 15 month instead of the usual 9 months. Why change the duration of pregnancy if it doesn't matter in game?
        ​A bit of additional flavour.

        Originally posted by wonderandawe
        Seriously, power fantasy is a big part of the Exalted game experience.
        I disagree.

        Originally posted by wonderandawe
        I don't have a power fantasy of being pregnant for fifteen months, and I don't think many other men* and woman would either.
        Given how many things people complain about the game mentioning on account of it interrupting their power fantasies, I find this on its own to not be sufficiently convincing.

        We have rules for catching cholera, and never dying from the symptoms of it; is that part of somebody's power fantasy, or should that be removed as well?


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

          ​A bit of additional flavour.
          I think it is time for be to bow out of this argument before I start ranting about how forcing woman to go though six extra months of pregnancy is a stupid bit of flavor. I got better things to worry about than fictional woman dealing with situations that won't even happen in my own personal games.


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          • #35
            I would point out that 6 extra months isn't just flavour, it's a much longer time of a game that a character is pregnant rather than having a baby.

            (Though 2.5 Hybrid Body Rearrangement solves that issue! 3-month-long pregnancies are much easier to fit into downtime)

            And on that subject...

            So, shapeshifting and pregnancy. Big issue regarding Exalts and pregnancy.

            In the game I played, the ST decided that when a Lunar got pregnant, they lost the ability to turn into a man, but could continue to turn into animals (I think the foetus shapeshifted into the appropriate animal foetus, but I'm not sure: not like we could have a look, and the Changing Moon gave birth in human form).

            For my own game, I decided that shapeshifting caused the foetus to be absorbed back into the mother's body (in Exalted, after all, foetuses explicitly have no souls, so I don't expect any of the characters will have any kind of problem with this: except for the Dynasty, I can't think of any societies in Exalted who have an issue with abortion, and none of the Lunars in my game are from the Dynasty), so the Full Moon's sexcepades have no long-term effect, since he changes sex fairly often and turns into an elephant or a roc to carry the others, or a cat to spy, every 5 minutes.

            What about the rest of you? Anyone have this come up in their games? What do you think is the best way to handle it?


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            • #36
              Well, there's a bit of a trade-off, isn't there? Six extra months placed against five months where it doesn't even show, followed by another eight months until it develops enough to be obstructive.

              ​Incidentally, I like how the first Dragon Blooded book describes Exalted dying during childbirth to be "unheard of" rather than strictly impossible. It's the kind of thing that can readily be interpreted either way.


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              • #37
                Wow, 15 months? That's baffling. Probably not gonna use that one if it reoccurs.

                As an aside, I think the 'everyone is bisexual' thing was sort of like a signal-to-noise issue. I suspect it was tapping into the fact that a lot of cultures in the past have had sexual mores so different from ours that "heterosexual" or "homosexual" as categories are almost wholly inappropriate for discussing how they viewed sex, sexuality and relationships. Because some people might parse that as "everyone is bi/pan" then they go to write that, and communication breaks down further when that misapprehension is rendered in very aggressive/forceful language.

                Anyhow, if they do discuss sexuality in Creation again, which I suspect they won't in any serious detail, I would imagine they'll draw upon the aforementioned differences of sexuality in the ancient world. I read this incredible essay a few years ago which does a great job of discussing the vagaries of Roman sexuality, while contextualizing it in the realistic expectation that theory differed from practice. I'll try to find it.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                  I would point out that 6 extra months isn't just flavour, it's a much longer time of a game that a character is pregnant rather than having a baby.
                  ​I suppose that, even in games that are not taking place in real time rather than skipping ahead weeks or months at a time between stories to get to the next stage of the narrative, this can have certain practical implications; when the gestational period for the Exalted is a year, that means a pregnancy is guaranteed to touch off of each of the seasonal periods. I don't know what that might actually lead to myself, but it's more than nothing.

                  Hmm, I suppose if the character becomes pregnant in the summer, and the Storyteller has plans that place stories in the autumn, winter and spring, and a certain degree into the following summer, then the player's character is guaranteed to still be pregnant for each of those.



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                  • #39
                    I agree with Wonderandawe: from a strictly simulationist view, I can't see why an Exalt's body would drag out a human pregnancy longer than normal.

                    I can see pregnant Lunars getting their fetuses to shapeshift with them automatically, since a fetus without its own soul can be considered an extension of the mother's body, and animal embryos/fetuses/retained eggs are things that exists. As long as they stay in a form that has a uterus/oviduct/equivalent.

                    But what about a pregnant Infernal taking a shintai form? Or if Lunars can shapeshift into ghosts or elementals or demons or gods, what about that? There's presumably no animal-embryo-equivalent for Devil Tyrant Avatar Shintai or a garda bird. It would be plausible for the fetus to simply be absorbed in that case... or for a shintai form to make the baby demon-blooded, if it wasn't already going to be half-caste.


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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post

                      I think it is time for be to bow out of this argument before I start ranting about how forcing woman to go though six extra months of pregnancy is a stupid bit of flavor. I got better things to worry about than fictional woman dealing with situations that won't even happen in my own personal games.
                      Doesn't Creation's calendar have a similar amount of days to ours, only split into 15 months instead of 12? If that's the case, your "six extra months" position is flawed anyway. Normal human pregnancies take 3/4 of a year. Exalted pregnancies, going by previous text, take a full year. Working with 15 is clumsy, but knowing we can work with 12 instead, that's 12-9=3. That's three extra real-world calendar months. One-third longer, rather than two-thirds.

                      I got the impression from that section that Exalted pregnancies were supposed to be that way because the whole process is better, beginning to end. Less strain on the mother, guaranteed no defects, an easier birth, etc. The increased time is seen as a trade-off.

                      Of course, I'm still not a fan of the idea. If the nature of the Exalted makes carrying and delivering a baby better and easier, that's fine, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that an extended gestation is a consequence of that. If it ever came up in my games, I'd discard the notion.


                      RE: Red Rule for Dragon-Blooded Marriage: this is my preferred version.
                      Understand that marriage and breeding is an important part of Dragon-Blooded society. Most Dragon-Blooded have arranged marriages relatively young, and those marriages come with expectations of children produced. However, "most" Dragon-Blooded are not your PCs, and your character's marital life is as much yours to determine as their romantic life. Did your family neglect to arrange a marriage? Did they decide to hold out for a better offer? What if there was a marriage arranged, but your intended is halfway across Creation? What if your betrothed died young? If you are married, perhaps other obligations are keeping you apart.

                      The Storyteller and player should work together to determine any details of marital status and how it changes. If a marriage is arranged, the player should be invested in the story and have input and final approval on how it goes. The same applies for childbirth.

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                      • #41
                        Isn't the longer pregnancy time only for the dragon-blooded? I don't remember seeing it referenced for other exalted. Different/longer lengths for dragon blooded makes sense, as when they were created they were made to never intermix with humans, so the children they would give birth too would be exalted, not merely mortal. Giving birth to an exalted does seem a process that could vary length of term.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ren9077 View Post
                          RE: Red Rule for Dragon-Blooded Marriage: this is my preferred version.
                          I'd still like to see it addressed in print because in my experience duress is by far the most common way that the rape boundary gets crossed in RPGs.



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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                            I'd still like to see it addressed in print because in my experience duress is by far the most common way that the rape boundary gets crossed in RPGs.
                            Oh, absolutely. That's just my ideal framework for it.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              For my own game, I decided that shapeshifting caused the foetus to be absorbed back into the mother's body (in Exalted, after all, foetuses explicitly have no souls, so I don't expect any of the characters will have any kind of problem with this: except for the Dynasty, I can't think of any societies in Exalted who have an issue with abortion, and none of the Lunars in my game are from the Dynasty), so the Full Moon's sexcepades have no long-term effect, since he changes sex fairly often and turns into an elephant or a roc to carry the others, or a cat to spy, every 5 minutes.

                              What about the rest of you? Anyone have this come up in their games? What do you think is the best way to handle it?
                              Something something Elsewhere displacement, something something Essence, something something handwave it away.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                                ​I don't know; I found the ideas of the Dynast notion of parenthood advocating distance and aloofness to be fairly plausible. Also maybe some ideas that, even sans body shame, nursing is something undignified for an upper class person.
                                Ah but where does the idea of that indignity come from?

                                (Also here be dragons, or at least finicky details that I wrote that may well get changed so I'm gonna bow out of the convo now)


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