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  • Gaius
    started a topic On Infernals and First Age Solars

    On Infernals and First Age Solars

    A lot of people seemed unhappy about talk of parallels with Green Sun Princes and First Age Solars, over in the Infernal Wish List thread. I don't expect this will change anyone's mind, but here's how I've seen it, should that help.

    EX3 Infernals as just "First Age Solars" would be dumb, so I sure am glad the EX3 team isn't doing that. I think that it's analogous to Abyssals in this regard. Even a fully informed Abyssal is unlikely to think, "Gee golly, my power sure is a dark mirror of a Solar's!" and is (slightly) more likely to think, "Gee golly, my power sure is suffused with the nature of death, destruction, and the hereafter!"* It's a statement of how they can be described in a broader narrative sense and it's something that can add a certain weight if you find it appealing, but can be largely ignored for most practical purposes if you'd rather. By the same token, the devs have said that Liminals, Getimians, and [unknown] will respectively play off the narrative themes and connections to Abyssals, Sidereals, and Lunars while maintaining their own distinct themes and playstyles. So, while a parallel can be drawn between the First Age Solars and Infernals, it's probably not the thing that will make most people say, "I want to make an Infernal."

    There was a nice quote I remember seeing, but can't seem to find, about how Infernals are about easy, casual displays of phenomenal cosmic power. The impression I get is that this is most of what they mean when the phrase "First Age Solar decadence and corruption" comes up. When a Solar Brawler throws a punch, it's a hell of a punch that will really be felt by whomever it hits. With further mastery and/or the conscious decision to throw it at the ground, it may cause some local collateral damage and injure nearby fighters or throw them off their footing. When an Infernal Brawler throws a punch, it's a hell** of a punch that will really be felt by whomever it hits, both for its force and for the nimbus of radioactive green fire blooming around it. Perhaps without further mastery or even decision, everyone close by will also have a chance of getting scorched and/or cancer.

    The impression I get is that Infernal powers display an alien glory and excess***. It's the kind of power that isn't inherently evil,**** but is able to cause a a great deal of collateral damage and unintended consequences (and not just in death and destruction; lobotomizing or reshaping people or the world fit, too) if one isn't careful with it. Restraint is a helpful capacity for any Exalt, but an Infernal probably needs it most if he or she wants to, say, fill the role of a more traditional hero. To quote one person who may broadly characterize the nature of Infernal power: "I have one speed, I have one gear: Go."

    Remember some of the Charm outlines in the Infernal Backer Preview. Subject to change, yes, but the devs took from the feedback that they were on the right track. Bear in mind also that synergies are being kept more in mind for EX3 Charms.

    - Drifting Trauma Gale turns the Infernal into a wind that's undetectable by most avenues, cannot see for the duration, and reflexively attacks whatever it encounters.
    - Ravenous Whirlwind Prana gives a bonus to attacks that break Stealth.
    - Crimson Razor Wind both ups the damage to attacks, and erases from memory anyone or anything slain/destroyed by it.
    - World-Shedding Asana, Moment Murdering Assignation, and Blood-Scenting Cyclone respectively forces everyone nearby into stealth (and makes them forget what they were doing), penalizes their combat momentum for staying in stealth, and then gives an in-range Infernal a free attack when they come out of stealth.

    It's easy to see how all of these could combine for potent attacks the Infernal has incentives to use. And it's also easy to see how careless use of these could accidentally kill a ton of people, up to and including not only a loved one, but all memory of that loved one.

    One who focuses on one's own well-being and who doesn't care -- or learns not to care -- about these negative consequences to others will probably run into fewer painful, conflicted moments along the way to getting what they want. They're also the sorts who will likely be described as corrupt and decadent by others, and that is how the First Age Solar comparison comes up. Being spoiled by vast amounts of resources from hell are meant to encourage this behavior, not to mandate it.

    * Yes, yes, EX3 Abyssals appear to start in somewhat similar places as Solars, but that's obviously not the meat of their experience.
    ** Heh.
    *** Not uniformly. Some powers may be fairly subdued, in display and effect. But I'm expecting it as a general theme throughout the set.
    **** For certain definitions of "evil," yes. Also, I'm assuming -- and grateful -- that "evil" in EX3 will no longer be all-but-objectively defined as "what the Ebon Dragon does."

    tl;dr I think the "First Age Solars" thing is being overemphasized, in comparison to the actual Infernal play experience.

    Thoughts? Musings? No real purpose I had in mind for this thread, to be clear.
    Last edited by Gaius; 03-22-2014, 09:50 PM.

  • Sakii
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

    The Deathlords were just pulling off the plan the Yozis gave the Neverborn. It's a doubly bad plan, because you are trying to pull a fast one on people you expect to be too stupid to get the job done in the first place.
    thats why they were doomed to sucess

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Alternatively, that they select the legacies of the best of the Solars so that they can more credibly demonstrate the weakness and corruption of humankind, showing how they cannot resist the temptations of Hell and their own unfettered desires.

    Add a touch of people whose hearts can be made to ache at the sight of this fallen world governed by treacherous gods and incompetent hairless apes, for added irony.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Ideon View Post
    It'd be pretty funny if the Yozis went rifling through the Exaltations and took the 50 least monstrous ones, just for giggles.
    "It is just and fitting that the Unconquered Sun is left with the likes of tyrants and butchers, for look what has become of the world under his vision..."

    Leave a comment:


  • Ideon
    replied
    It'd be pretty funny if the Yozis went rifling through the Exaltations and took the 50 least monstrous ones, just for giggles.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

    I don't like plans that expect incompetence from the people executing the plan.
    Why is that?

    Leave a comment:


  • notthepenguins
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
    I don't like plans that expect incompetence from the people executing the plan.
    It's not necessarily incompetence. If their calculations went "Well, we expect the Exaltations to escape at this rate and with this force, so they'll probably only be able to get, say, 75 at the high end, we'll insist on 50 and mislead them into thinking the odds are better," that's not incompetence. It's just a difficult task with an appropriately low success rate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by John Mørke View Post
    Another important point some people seem to be overlooking: the Yozis only asked for fifty of the stolen Solar powers. Not one hundred, and not half. Fifty. Similarly, it may be possible that many Solars slain in the Usurpation were not world-eating monsters.
    Darn it, I'm still stuck on this image of the Yozis sometimes just wanting to eat their Exalted.

    "So, how many of the Exaltations do you want?"
    "Only those with the freshest, most succulent livers shall be saved..."

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyeudo
    replied
    Originally posted by Sakii View Post
    it was a bad plan, the yozis kinda screw it up when they decided to make them
    The Deathlords were just pulling off the plan the Yozis gave the Neverborn. It's a doubly bad plan, because you are trying to pull a fast one on people you expect to be too stupid to get the job done in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • hippokrene
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

    I don't like plans that expect incompetence from the people executing the plan.
    I find myself agreeing and hope they drop the 'we expect this plan to fail' bit from the Yozi. If they picked 50, I'd like there to be a reason they only wanted 50.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sakii
    replied
    it was a bad plan, the yozis kinda screw it up when they decided to make them

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyeudo
    replied
    Originally posted by Sakii View Post

    if we go by the 2ed reason for picking 50 it was because they didnt though the plan would work so well. They asked for 50 expecting that the Neverborn would get less, somthing like they catch 75 so they split 25/50, it was a good bet that went wrong
    I don't like plans that expect incompetence from the people executing the plan.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sakii
    replied
    Originally posted by Godjaw View Post

    I wonder which is more evocative. Declaring exaclty 50 exaltations, or making claim to 1/3rd.
    if we go by the 2ed reason for picking 50 it was because they didnt though the plan would work so well. They asked for 50 expecting that the Neverborn would get less, somthing like they catch 75 so they split 25/50, it was a good bet that went wrong

    Leave a comment:


  • Parallel
    replied
    Originally posted by Godjaw View Post

    I wonder which is more evocative. Declaring exaclty 50 exaltations, or making claim to 1/3rd.
    Bare in mind if the plan had gone off without a hitch, they'd have gotten nearly all of them.
    So, lets call it a 5th of all Solar exaltations?
    And they still only wanted 50 at that point.
    They clearly only want 50 for a reason. Not because it's a specific fraction.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ravraxas
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

    I think he's saying the Yozis have a plan that calls for exactly 50 Exaltations and that not all of those Exaltations are going to be the reincarnations of mad god-kings. Don't jump to conclusions so fast. You'll hurt yourself.
    There is a reason I phrased that like a question you know. Although reading my post again I realize that I came off as excessively confrontational. It wasn't my intention.

    I suppose that it could interpreted as the Yozi only wanting the Exaltations of non-Mad Solars to get their Chosen thinking on the injustice of the Usurpation, which would be rather intelligent of them for a change.

    Leave a comment:

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