Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How much history do Creation's people know?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Elfive
    replied
    Exigence is like a phone or computer. Only a small number of the people using it actually know how it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lundgren
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    You're welcome to disagree
    Well, thank you. That's kind of you.

    Lets just agree to disagree.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    I don't really think it is a comparable situation…
    You're welcome to disagree, but…

    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    …as there are possible to communicate with beings in Exalted that has been around since back then.
    …like I said earlier, the gods are not a perfect, unchanging, reliable, unbiased source of Real True Knowledge. Assuming he had survived to today, questioning the guy who wrote the Book of Leviticus (ostensibly Moshe Rabbenu) about what the intent was in various passages probably won't give you accurate information either.

    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    (still not entirely accurate, just as even our history about Rome tend to be a bit flawed)
    I wish understatements made recognizable sounds in the same way ducks did, so I could post an onomatopoeia. I'll do it anyway. Fwang!

    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    When it comes to Ex3, I guess most gods knows quite a bit about exaltations…
    Depends on what you mean by "quite a bit," I think.

    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    But back in the first two editions, it might be that most gods aren't really informed, and quite a few of them just knows that the Exalts fought on the same side of the Incarnae.
    I don't think the existence of Exigents would render this untrue.

    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    So correcting someone on history would then be more like arguing semantics.
    An exercise in pulling teeth, got it.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 09-21-2016, 11:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Root
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcob View Post
    Because they're the top of the food chain, since the Yozis cannot escape their bindings? Because they created the Exalted? Because Heaven answers to them?

    And because it was the Incarnae that bestowed the Creation-Ruling Mandate, the ones they bestowed it on have, implicitly, the backing of the gods, the ones that keep Creation moving as it should. No 'the world doesn't care about gods' escape clauses here, Creation literally requires their presence and continued activity. Having the support of Heaven is no small thing.
    I don't see much support for this, especially in Ex3. Gods are administrators, not masters of their purview. Heaven is distant, divided, and subject to human limitations even in its most powerful agents.

    The Incarnae's biggest impact on Creation and Heaven is an indirect one: the continuing empowerment of Exalts. And those Exalts have no more power - or right - than what they can actually exercise.

    I'm seeing more and more that rights, as a concept, serve little purpose (in the game too). No one will help Solars because of some abstract principle of ownership or stewardship. Creation's crises are too many and too urgent - from the local shortages and threats up to the global ones - for anyone to abandon what's working in favor of something that was promised eons ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcob View Post
    Because they're the top of the food chain, since the Yozis cannot escape their bindings? Because they created the Exalted? Because Heaven answers to them?
    The Exalted are at the top of the food chain. I feel like something about the child surpassing the parent probably describes the relationship between the Heavens and the Exalted.

    Originally posted by Marcob View Post
    And because it was the Incarnae that bestowed the Creation-Ruling Mandate, the ones they bestowed it on have, implicitly, the backing of the gods, the ones that keep Creation moving as it should. No 'the world doesn't care about gods' escape clauses here, Creation literally requires their presence and continued activity. Having the support of Heaven is no small thing.
    Having the support of Heaven is definitely no small thing in the Age of Sorrows, but it doesn't seem like Heaven's Might could compare with that of the Exalted host.

    Originally posted by Marcob View Post
    I think it's ultimately up the Storyteller to decided one way or the other. Does the CRM matter? Was it bestowed on all Exalted, just the Solars, or what? What does having the CRM mean for the players? And so on. I'll concede that it might not matter at your table, but I won't accept that it cannot matter at any table.
    Like all things, this is true. It's worth thinking about what the actual value is in having it be something more than a political/philosophical idea, though. Exalted seems very keen on exploring these kinds of things in a realpolitik fashion, and part of that is doing away with the notion that something needs to be metaphysically significant to be important. The idea of a Creation-Ruling Mandate could be a valuable thing to argue philosophically, but the idea of it being something mystically binding seems much less interesting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marcob
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanaya View Post

    What gives the Incarnae the authority to make anyone the rightful rulers of Creation? They didn't even win it by right of conquest - the Exalted did that while the Incarnae cheered from the sidelines. Then after the Exalted had already toppled the mightiest beings to ever exist, conquered Creation and made it their own, the Incarnae gave them the equivalent of a gold star and a pat on the back. The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.
    Because they're the top of the food chain, since the Yozis cannot escape their bindings? Because they created the Exalted? Because Heaven answers to them?

    And because it was the Incarnae that bestowed the Creation-Ruling Mandate, the ones they bestowed it on have, implicitly, the backing of the gods, the ones that keep Creation moving as it should. No 'the world doesn't care about gods' escape clauses here, Creation literally requires their presence and continued activity. Having the support of Heaven is no small thing.

    I think it's ultimately up the Storyteller to decided one way or the other. Does the CRM matter? Was it bestowed on all Exalted, just the Solars, or what? What does having the CRM mean for the players? And so on. I'll concede that it might not matter at your table, but I won't accept that it cannot matter at any table.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Well rights are pretty abstact.

    I could see that it would definitely be something that PCs argue about. Just that it's a bit silly as some kind of objective discussion for players.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lanaya
    replied
    Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
    It's politics, not some kind of metaphysical binding. By telling the Exalted they can have at it with Creation, I believe the idea was that they then would be happy with that and not kick open the gates to Yu-Shan, so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.
    I'm aware. My point is that it was a symbolic gesture made by a group with no authority to actually grant the 'right' to rule Creation, and therefore has no relevance to a discussion on who does, in fact, possess that right.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanaya View Post
    The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.
    It's politics, not some kind of metaphysical binding. By telling the Exalted they can have at it with Creation, I believe the idea was that they then would be happy with that and not kick open the gates to Yu-Shan, so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lanaya
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcob View Post
    Solars were given the Creation Ruling Mandate by the Incarnae, weren't they? Including the Dragons. IMO, that is a strong argument for Solars being the rightful rulers and the Dragonblooded and Siddies being the literal usurpers.
    What gives the Incarnae the authority to make anyone the rightful rulers of Creation? They didn't even win it by right of conquest - the Exalted did that while the Incarnae cheered from the sidelines. Then after the Exalted had already toppled the mightiest beings to ever exist, conquered Creation and made it their own, the Incarnae gave them the equivalent of a gold star and a pat on the back. The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Elfive
    replied
    Yeah. I mean, if the siderials were the officially designated rulers of Creation they might have made a martial art that allowed them to literally punch you with their authority, but that's not really how solars do things.

    Leave a comment:


  • Root
    replied
    I don't think the CRM is a terribly useful concept. I'm happy if Ex3 doesn't ever clear its throat and say, "Excuse me, but..." in a squeaky little lawyer voice.

    Creation makes a lot more sense as a "might makes right" world than as a "let's refer to our founding documents" one. The returning Solars legitimize themselves through strength: they can lead mightier armies than the Realm's finest generals, they can turn back the Wyld, then can challenge the mightiest spirits, they can work world-changing sorceries, they can energize and organize humanity to accomplish the unthinkable, and much more. Waving a deed around is irrelevant next to all of that, and no one in power could be expected to care if Solars "proved" with logic and rules that they were the real masters of Creation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Astralporing
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcob View Post

    Solars were given the Creation Ruling Mandate by the Incarnae, weren't they?
    That... wasn't as clear-cut as you might think even in 2nd edition. According to whom you asked, the CRM was given to the exalted host as a whole, to the Celestial Exalted, the Solars, or specifically to Merela (UCS gave the crown to her, personally, didn't he?). As far as we know it was never clarified more - neither in game canon, nor within the game itself. There are many quotes about it, but they are neither consistent, nor conclusive enough.
    And it will get even more nebulous once all sides will start employing celestial lawyers. Or bringing witnesses/experts. Preferably both numerous, and armed.
    Last edited by Astralporing; 09-21-2016, 11:20 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lundgren
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Probably very little.

    (Consider for comparison, in every instance of the word "Satan" occurring in the Old Testament, it did not refer to some nigh-omnipotent evil figure - it simply meant "an adversary or accuser," and with the exception of the Book of Job, generally didn't even refer to anyone in particular. Even the Book of Job doesn't paint the particular Satan therein as evil so much as insufficiently convinced of Job's faith.)
    I don't really think it is a comparable situation, as there are possible to communicate with beings in Exalted that has been around since back then. The real world religions also came from an era when people didn't knew much about how the world actually worked. At the time of the usurpation, I think the Solars side of the story was quite accessible, with quite a bit of evidence to back it up (still not entirely accurate, just as even our history about Rome tend to be a bit flawed).

    In any case, I recall a text in 2ed (I think in CofCD: Yu-Shan) about how they put the gods that had been openly loyal to Sol as Celestial Gods, tried to kill off the ones openly opposed, and the terrestrial gods are mainly made up of those that didn't show the proper enthusiasm about overthrowing the Primordials.

    So, my guess is that one of the reasons even scholars might believe in the Immaclate Order's version is because there hasn't been that many beings around willing to stick their neck out for what really happened back then.

    When it comes to Ex3, I guess most gods knows quite a bit about exaltations due to the Exigens. But back in the first two editions, it might be that most gods aren't really informed, and quite a few of them just knows that the Exalts fought on the same side of the Incarnae. So from their points of view, the anathema story might fit. Just that the Exalts tricked the Incarnae to give them the powers, not outright stealing them, and the Incarnae hasn't really been active since then. So correcting someone on history would then be more like arguing semantics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marcob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    It really comes down to whether you think the endorsement of the usurpers of Heaven has any weight on who the "rightful" rulers of the world are. I personally think the entire concept has been stripped of any meaning at this point.
    I think it does, yes, because as far as I know, no gods participated in the Usurpation, and I believe the gods have expressed, at the very most, ambivalence about the DBs being in charge. I think I can recall that fluff has shown several times that the gods like the Solars.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X