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How much history do Creation's people know?

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  • #46
    I don't think the CRM is a terribly useful concept. I'm happy if Ex3 doesn't ever clear its throat and say, "Excuse me, but..." in a squeaky little lawyer voice.

    Creation makes a lot more sense as a "might makes right" world than as a "let's refer to our founding documents" one. The returning Solars legitimize themselves through strength: they can lead mightier armies than the Realm's finest generals, they can turn back the Wyld, then can challenge the mightiest spirits, they can work world-changing sorceries, they can energize and organize humanity to accomplish the unthinkable, and much more. Waving a deed around is irrelevant next to all of that, and no one in power could be expected to care if Solars "proved" with logic and rules that they were the real masters of Creation.


    When all the world was very young
    And mountain magic heavy hung
    The supermen would walk in file
    Guardians of a loveless isle

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    • #47
      Yeah. I mean, if the siderials were the officially designated rulers of Creation they might have made a martial art that allowed them to literally punch you with their authority, but that's not really how solars do things.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Marcob View Post
        Solars were given the Creation Ruling Mandate by the Incarnae, weren't they? Including the Dragons. IMO, that is a strong argument for Solars being the rightful rulers and the Dragonblooded and Siddies being the literal usurpers.
        What gives the Incarnae the authority to make anyone the rightful rulers of Creation? They didn't even win it by right of conquest - the Exalted did that while the Incarnae cheered from the sidelines. Then after the Exalted had already toppled the mightiest beings to ever exist, conquered Creation and made it their own, the Incarnae gave them the equivalent of a gold star and a pat on the back. The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.


        My homebrew: Abyssals, Infernals, Dragon Kings, martial arts.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Lanaya View Post
          The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.
          It's politics, not some kind of metaphysical binding. By telling the Exalted they can have at it with Creation, I believe the idea was that they then would be happy with that and not kick open the gates to Yu-Shan, so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.


          I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
            It's politics, not some kind of metaphysical binding. By telling the Exalted they can have at it with Creation, I believe the idea was that they then would be happy with that and not kick open the gates to Yu-Shan, so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.
            I'm aware. My point is that it was a symbolic gesture made by a group with no authority to actually grant the 'right' to rule Creation, and therefore has no relevance to a discussion on who does, in fact, possess that right.


            My homebrew: Abyssals, Infernals, Dragon Kings, martial arts.

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            • #51
              Well rights are pretty abstact.

              I could see that it would definitely be something that PCs argue about. Just that it's a bit silly as some kind of objective discussion for players.


              STing Bronze Age Exalted

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Lanaya View Post

                What gives the Incarnae the authority to make anyone the rightful rulers of Creation? They didn't even win it by right of conquest - the Exalted did that while the Incarnae cheered from the sidelines. Then after the Exalted had already toppled the mightiest beings to ever exist, conquered Creation and made it their own, the Incarnae gave them the equivalent of a gold star and a pat on the back. The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.
                Because they're the top of the food chain, since the Yozis cannot escape their bindings? Because they created the Exalted? Because Heaven answers to them?

                And because it was the Incarnae that bestowed the Creation-Ruling Mandate, the ones they bestowed it on have, implicitly, the backing of the gods, the ones that keep Creation moving as it should. No 'the world doesn't care about gods' escape clauses here, Creation literally requires their presence and continued activity. Having the support of Heaven is no small thing.

                I think it's ultimately up the Storyteller to decided one way or the other. Does the CRM matter? Was it bestowed on all Exalted, just the Solars, or what? What does having the CRM mean for the players? And so on. I'll concede that it might not matter at your table, but I won't accept that it cannot matter at any table.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Marcob View Post
                  Because they're the top of the food chain, since the Yozis cannot escape their bindings? Because they created the Exalted? Because Heaven answers to them?
                  The Exalted are at the top of the food chain. I feel like something about the child surpassing the parent probably describes the relationship between the Heavens and the Exalted.

                  Originally posted by Marcob View Post
                  And because it was the Incarnae that bestowed the Creation-Ruling Mandate, the ones they bestowed it on have, implicitly, the backing of the gods, the ones that keep Creation moving as it should. No 'the world doesn't care about gods' escape clauses here, Creation literally requires their presence and continued activity. Having the support of Heaven is no small thing.
                  Having the support of Heaven is definitely no small thing in the Age of Sorrows, but it doesn't seem like Heaven's Might could compare with that of the Exalted host.

                  Originally posted by Marcob View Post
                  I think it's ultimately up the Storyteller to decided one way or the other. Does the CRM matter? Was it bestowed on all Exalted, just the Solars, or what? What does having the CRM mean for the players? And so on. I'll concede that it might not matter at your table, but I won't accept that it cannot matter at any table.
                  Like all things, this is true. It's worth thinking about what the actual value is in having it be something more than a political/philosophical idea, though. Exalted seems very keen on exploring these kinds of things in a realpolitik fashion, and part of that is doing away with the notion that something needs to be metaphysically significant to be important. The idea of a Creation-Ruling Mandate could be a valuable thing to argue philosophically, but the idea of it being something mystically binding seems much less interesting.


                  I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Marcob View Post
                    Because they're the top of the food chain, since the Yozis cannot escape their bindings? Because they created the Exalted? Because Heaven answers to them?

                    And because it was the Incarnae that bestowed the Creation-Ruling Mandate, the ones they bestowed it on have, implicitly, the backing of the gods, the ones that keep Creation moving as it should. No 'the world doesn't care about gods' escape clauses here, Creation literally requires their presence and continued activity. Having the support of Heaven is no small thing.
                    I don't see much support for this, especially in Ex3. Gods are administrators, not masters of their purview. Heaven is distant, divided, and subject to human limitations even in its most powerful agents.

                    The Incarnae's biggest impact on Creation and Heaven is an indirect one: the continuing empowerment of Exalts. And those Exalts have no more power - or right - than what they can actually exercise.

                    I'm seeing more and more that rights, as a concept, serve little purpose (in the game too). No one will help Solars because of some abstract principle of ownership or stewardship. Creation's crises are too many and too urgent - from the local shortages and threats up to the global ones - for anyone to abandon what's working in favor of something that was promised eons ago.


                    When all the world was very young
                    And mountain magic heavy hung
                    The supermen would walk in file
                    Guardians of a loveless isle

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      I don't really think it is a comparable situation…
                      You're welcome to disagree, but…

                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      …as there are possible to communicate with beings in Exalted that has been around since back then.
                      …like I said earlier, the gods are not a perfect, unchanging, reliable, unbiased source of Real True Knowledge. Assuming he had survived to today, questioning the guy who wrote the Book of Leviticus (ostensibly Moshe Rabbenu) about what the intent was in various passages probably won't give you accurate information either.

                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      (still not entirely accurate, just as even our history about Rome tend to be a bit flawed)
                      I wish understatements made recognizable sounds in the same way ducks did, so I could post an onomatopoeia. I'll do it anyway. Fwang!

                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      When it comes to Ex3, I guess most gods knows quite a bit about exaltations…
                      Depends on what you mean by "quite a bit," I think.

                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      But back in the first two editions, it might be that most gods aren't really informed, and quite a few of them just knows that the Exalts fought on the same side of the Incarnae.
                      I don't think the existence of Exigents would render this untrue.

                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      So correcting someone on history would then be more like arguing semantics.
                      An exercise in pulling teeth, got it.
                      Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 09-21-2016, 11:38 PM.


                      He/him

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        You're welcome to disagree
                        Well, thank you. That's kind of you.

                        Lets just agree to disagree.

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                        • #57
                          Exigence is like a phone or computer. Only a small number of the people using it actually know how it works.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                            Exigence is like a phone or computer. Only a small number of the people using it actually know how it works.
                            I think it is much closer to a car in that regard, and quite the difference to just see one when they are far out of your hand or when you actually have access to one.

                            So while both a phone and a car is a mystery to most on how they actually work, it is far easier to know enough for the layman when it comes to a phones (and if you own a crappy car, you tend to learn quite a bit about how they operate as well).

                            With Exigens, you have to get a shard, and pick a mortal to Exalt; being actually involved in the process. Get them out of the picture, and what do most gods actually know about the Exalts? Created by the Incarnae to be used to overthrow the Primordials, and that Lytek is heavily involved (regardless if it is true or not). One gives a bit of knowledge among the gods, the other don't leave much more than speculations.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Lanaya View Post

                              What gives the Incarnae the authority to make anyone the rightful rulers of Creation? They didn't even win it by right of conquest - the Exalted did that while the Incarnae cheered from the sidelines. Then after the Exalted had already toppled the mightiest beings to ever exist, conquered Creation and made it their own, the Incarnae gave them the equivalent of a gold star and a pat on the back. The Creation-Ruling Mandate is a meaningless formality.

                              Because the Incarnae were the rulers of Creation before the Exalted, and abdicated rulership to them?

                              The Primordials created Creation, then created the Gods to maintain and run Creation while they fucked around with the GoD. When the Exalted kicked Primordial ass, the Incarnae (and other Celestial gods) went "sweet, now you run the joint" and scooted off to Heaven.

                              The Incarnae didn't "cheer from the sidelines", either. The UCS was pretty involved, about as much as He could be without toeing the Geas line. Do generals in charge of armies not get credit for winning wars if they don't personally fight them?

                              I dunno, seems like a pretty standard, cut-and-dried pass-off of power to me. The Old Boss got sacked, the Middle Mangers got pushed (or pushed themselves) up, and the Middle Managers lackeys took their spot.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Boston123 View Post


                                Because the Incarnae were the rulers of Creation before the Exalted, and abdicated rulership to them?
                                By what right were the Incarnae the rulers of Creation?

                                Saying the Solars are the rightful rulers of Creation is like saying that James III/VIII (father of the more famous Bonny Prince Charlie) was the rightful ruler of Britain because his father King James II was overthrown in a revolution in 1688... when James II's ancestor William the Conquerer had seized most of Britain by force from the Anglo-Saxons, who'd seized it from the Romano-Britons, who of course were descended both from Britons and foreign conquerers.

                                I mean, sure, if you accept the legitimacy of the previous revolution, but at this point it's subjective. It's just a matter of which revolutions you like and don't like.

                                The only group with any legitimacy beyond "we seized power so now we're in charge" are the Primordials, who actually created Creation. But I imagine most people in Exalted wouldn't consider that legitimate.

                                Essentially, these are all fine subjective in-setting arguments. But from an OOC view, there's no legitimate group, just whichever one your PCs want to support. If they're Solars, I imagine they'll probably argue Solars should be in charge, if they're not, then probably not.

                                Personally, I'd argue that saying one Exalt type should be in charge is a bit silly: clearly there's going to be suitable and unsuitable rulers amongst all Exalt types.


                                STing Bronze Age Exalted

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