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  • #76
    Originally posted by Erinys View Post
    About the Creation Ruling Mandate, I always read it as a parody of the whole concept of the divine right of kings.
    It is actually based on the Mandate of Heaven, which makes it far less ironic. The Exalted Host overthrew the Primordials for the Gods, so the Incarnae decreed that they had a Creation Ruling Mandate. Later the Sidreal and Dragonblooded Exalted conspired to overthrow the Solar Directorate and the Unconquered Son turned his back on Creation. Now, he's turned his front to Creation and Solar Exaltations are happening all over the place.
    Originally posted by Wikipedia
    The Mandate of Heaven (Chinese: 天命; pinyin: tiānmìng; literally: "heaven decree") is an ancient Chinese belief/theory and philosophical idea that tiān (heaven) granted emperors the right to rule based on their ability to govern well, appropriately and fairly. According to this belief, heaven bestows its mandate to a just ruler, the Son of Heaven. The Mandate of Heaven depends on whether an emperor is sufficiently virtuous to rule; if he does not fulfil his obligations as emperor, then he loses the Mandate and thus the right to be emperor. The Mandate of Heaven would then transfer to those who would rule best. The fact that a ruler was overthrown was taken by itself as an indication that the ruler had lost the Mandate of Heaven. In addition, it was also common belief that natural disasters such as famine and flood were other signs of heaven’s displeasure with the current ruler, so there would often be revolts following major environmental events as citizens saw these as signs of heaven's displeasure.
    "You have mandate to rule because you overthrew your rulers when they became unjust and tyrannical, just as they did when their predecessors did. There's a lesson here. ... Learn it."
    Last edited by Greyman; 09-27-2016, 07:35 AM.

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    • #77
      The Creation Ruling Mandate is just a natural extension of the just-world fallacy, which is really common among human beings.

      I dislike any reference within the canon to an actual, factual and documented historical event. It's not needed. Likewise, it's completely unverifiable. 'But Piff,' I hear you say, '... ancient immortal Gods can attest to the event, can speak from a position of actually being there'. Perhaps true, depending on interpretation. Even given that however, the authentic narrative is lost in a sea of biased siblings, none grounded in fact but often much more colorful, politically useful, and easy to remember.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Greyman View Post
        It is actually based on the Mandate of Heaven, which makes it far less ironic. The Exalted Host overthrew the Primordials for the Gods, so the Incarnae decreed that they had a Creation Ruling Mandate. Later the Sidreal and Dragonblooded Exalted conspired to overthrow the Solar Directorate and the Unconquered Son turned his back on Creation. Now, he's turned his front to Creation and Solar Exaltations are happening all over the place.
        I think it's a parody of the Chinese concept, too. The Chinese belief seems to be based on the idea that Tian, itself, has a cosmic right to judge who is unjust and decide who gets to rule. But the Incarnae are just as bad as their Chosen, and they themselves got their authority by killing the previous rulers. If they have the authority to hand out the Mandate of Heaven, what higher Heaven gave it to them?

        There is no higher Heaven... so what is the concept of a Creation-Ruling Mandate, itself, based on?

        It's wrapped up in claims to be morally superior... but those claims are hollow. They aren't based on a moral concept of justice as anything other than the power to murder people. No humanistic philosophy of inherent rights. No legitimacy granted by consent of the governed. No concept that morality can be granted by Creation or the Wyld or the shinma. Not even being more competent at defending Creation. When the oppressed rise up against their oppressors, they keep imitating them instead of proposing an alternative.

        There is a lesson here, but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The Exalted have put great effort into erasing all historical record and lying about the past. With all the records gone and everyone who could say anything silenced or unwilling to tell the truth, it looks impossible to me that most people will ever know the truth, or learn anything from it.

        We can see the result of this: Creation is a broken, awful place that's going to end any year now. Hell isn't about to explode, but it's Hell. The game doesn't tell us what to think of these results, but it feels like a cynical parody to me. Which is what "Might Makes Right" deserves, in my opinion.
        Last edited by Erinys; 09-27-2016, 02:40 PM.


        She/Her. I am literal-minded and write literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to make a joke.
        My point of view may be different from yours but is equally valid.
        Exalted-cWoD-ArM url mega-library. Exalted name-generators, Exalted and WTA stuff from me and others.

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        • #79
          I don't think it is a parody. The Primordials made creation got tired of admin'ing it, created gods so they could muck around. Later the decided to make some mortal races literally to justify their vanity. But the Primordials gave the power to run things to the gods so they could do their thing. The gods then used the Mandate to manage and run things to find a way out of their servitude and slavery by making exalted to fight their creators.Their ploy worked and the creators were killed or imprisoned. The gods still had the permission and Mandate to rules Manage creation and they passed the right to rule over to the exalted and promptly decided to mimic the primordials in mucking off. They didnt create the world but they were given the keys to it by the creators and tasked with running it.

          The mandate is a legitimate thing I believe the problem is there is really no one left who knows or remembers it really .90% of the population died in the great contagion and the fae invasions. The setting to me is basically the UCS with his exaltations free has charged them to lead creation back to the golden age except this time they have to prove themselves worthy of the mandate they were given.

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          • #80
            I'm pretty sure the Mandate was just made up on the spot by the Incarnae, or stolen from the Primordials. And from what we know of Primordial behavior pre-War, they ruled by Might Makes Right and abused non-Primordials horrendously.
            Last edited by Erinys; 10-03-2016, 09:50 PM.


            She/Her. I am literal-minded and write literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to make a joke.
            My point of view may be different from yours but is equally valid.
            Exalted-cWoD-ArM url mega-library. Exalted name-generators, Exalted and WTA stuff from me and others.

            Comment


            • #81
              Yeah, no, not a parody. Parodies are works based off a material, exaggerated from the original for comedic effect. I wouldn't say the Mandate of Heaven is particularly exaggerated from the Chinese concept, nor is it presented in a particularly funny way.
              Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-28-2016, 10:14 AM.


              He/him

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                I'm pretty sure the Mandate was just made up on the spot by the Incarnae, or stolen from the Primordials. And from what we know of Primordial behavior pre-War, they ruled by Might Makes Right and abused non-Primordials horrendously.
                This is entirely possible as well. I am very new to Exalted as whole. Only played in one game so far and it is 3E but really love the system and setting. I only have the impressions I have been given by the core book to go off of. It definitely does not seem to be something emphasized as much though in the core book as everyone seems to state it was in previous editions.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                  Yeah, no, not a parody. Parodies are works based off a material, exaggerated from the original for comedic effect. I wouldn't say the Mandate of Heaven is particularly exaggerated from the Chinese concept, nor is it presenter in a particularly funny way.
                  A deconstuction then.


                  STing Bronze Age Exalted

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                  • #84
                    TVTropes Deconstruction, or Derrida Deconstruction?
                    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 10-04-2016, 06:41 AM.


                    He/him

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                    • #85
                      Well, Derrida as then expanded by others into the deconstruction of historical, mythical and religious narratives.

                      Exalted deconstructs the eastern concept of the Mandate of Heaven by showing that the Gods who justify the continual revolution of dynasties have no intrinsic right to do so. Just as it deconstructs the western concept of the Divine Right of Kings by presenting the Solars as the rightful Kings, while hinting that there is no intrinsic right for them to be so, and that they were not particularly good Kings in the first place.
                      Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 10-04-2016, 07:03 AM.


                      STing Bronze Age Exalted

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                      • #86
                        Ah, right. Deconstruction is a much better word.


                        She/Her. I am literal-minded and write literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to make a joke.
                        My point of view may be different from yours but is equally valid.
                        Exalted-cWoD-ArM url mega-library. Exalted name-generators, Exalted and WTA stuff from me and others.

                        Comment

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