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Any Doubts about the Theoi having Shapeshifting as their Pantheon Purview?

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  • Any Doubts about the Theoi having Shapeshifting as their Pantheon Purview?

    So I think this will work out and be pretty cool, It can be more fun then the simple arete we had before. But I still have doubts. I mean a lot of peoples essentially viewed the gods as being able to take forms different from man. I think the thing is we just have more examples of Gods doing stuff in general for the Theoi because well there are a lot of Greek/Roman/Etruscan legends that survived compared to say the Aesir.

    I mean it seemed Zeus had a greater degree of shapeshifting in his legends, what with turning ants into men, turning people into cows, turning himself into a "Golden Shower". But many of the other Gods were more toned down, they were usually just invisible or in the form of wind or air. Yeah Proteus could change form but that was his thing, representing the fluid nature of water. But it can be argued many of the other Pantheons have just as mutable shape as the Greek Myths. Like Zeus disguising himself as a mortal vagabond to observe Lykan Odin did this all the time as well, along with the rest of his pantheon. Sigurd was observed by gods in the form of birds. Loki turned into birds, and nuts, and horses, even Thor disgused himself as a boy when he went fishing.

    Vishnu manifested as everything from a Dwarf, to a Boar, to a fishman or a boy, arguably more mutable then Zeus' myths.

    So I will fully embrace their schtik as shapeshifters, I still have the nagging in the back of my head that giving them Shapeshifting as their "thing" seems a lot like giving Jotunblut to the Aesir. Something that was viewed as a clever new interpretation to make them stand out but really having some questionable issues.


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  • #2
    I think it makes perfect sense so long as their PSP also involves transforming others as well as themselves; Greek myth is not only rife with the gods taking varied shape, but transforming others (into animals, monsters, other sexes, etc) as punishment, reward, or escape. Other gods and mortals do it as well, but I'm struggling to see something else that would fit the Theoi better.



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    • #3
      Well you know... arete... just reimagine it as something different from Legendary Attribute lite...


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        I followed the mental reasoning given when the Theoi were previewed. And while yeah, the Aesir had Loki as a shapeshifter... But honestly? If you look at the overall collection of the Greek and Roman myths, then you'll see that a LOT of them involve someone changing themselves, someone transforming someone else, or both.

        "You like your own appearance? You're a flower now!"

        "You can't escape me, I'm a shower of golden coins!"

        "You're a monster now!"

        Like, it happens in pretty much all myth... But in the Greek legends I'm familiar with it happens a LOT. I can see why they chose it. Though I'm curious what the innate power and some of the Boons are.


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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        • #5
          Well to me that just seemed more like we have more surviving Greek stories.

          I mean we still have this in the very few surviving Norse Myths. Not just Loki turning himself into a bird and another into an acorn. We have Odin turning into a snake to get mead. We have Odin and his brothers grabbing primordial maggots and they become dwarves, turning one of his Nephews into a Wolf, turning brains into clouds, lots of wonky stuff.

          But yeah I do see what you mean and that is why I am okay with shapeshifting being their thing, but it does seem a smidgeon contrived.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Metamorphoses is a classic for a reason. What else would you suggest?


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              Well you know... arete... just reimagine it as something different from Legendary Attribute lite...
              I mean when does Hephaestus or Heracles shapeshift themselves or others, besides the ambiguity of their size.

              But it works. In a lot of ways people view the Greek gods as the most Defaulty/Vanilla/Generic of the gods because Familiarity kind of does that. So give it a try, if they think it is more fun then Arete by all means. I mean I don't even really know how the rules and powers will look till I read the whole book.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                Woohoo, shapeshifting!


                Really, the whole Arete thing from 1st edition was just excessive baggage to a system that was already broken with OP ridiculousness.


                Although this now brings up another concern as to what the Chinese PSP is going to be. Unless I'm mistaken, their PSP in 1st edition was all about transformation. One of their god level powers even gives you the option to pretty much remake any character from the ground up!
                Last edited by Nyrufa; 02-03-2017, 07:53 PM.

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                • #9
                  Yeah lot of lazy decisions that didn't pan out well in first ed. :P

                  But one of things I'm worried about for instance, is if we give the Theoi shapeshifting will the setting subtlely try to hobble all the other Pantheons' shapeshifting options to emphasize the Theoi's unique niche? I mean tossing a stone over your shoulder to recreate humanity after the flood was something they did, but will that mean you will not really be doing that with other pantheons? Will Loki be worse at shapeshifting then a random Theoi like Apollo or will he be able to compete with Zeus?


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Yeah lot of lazy decisions that didn't pan out well in first ed. :P

                    But one of things I'm worried about for instance, is if we give the Theoi shapeshifting will the setting subtlely try to hobble all the other Pantheons' shapeshifting options to emphasize the Theoi's unique niche? I mean tossing a stone over your shoulder to recreate humanity after the flood was something they did, but will that mean you will not really be doing that with other pantheons? Will Loki be worse at shapeshifting then a random Theoi like Apollo or will he be able to compete with Zeus?


                    I think (hope) that there will be ways in which the other pantheons can achieve shapeshifting if they so wish. But the Theoi will be the masters of it. And that kind of makes sense, because a lot of classical legends from their culture depict creatures with physiology from multiple different species blended together, which sounds like it could be the work of somebody who's highly talented with altering the physical form.

                    And I do suspect that some of their abilities will involve transforming other people. The Theoi were quite fond of turning people into trees, supposedly as a means of protecting them from rapists... Unfortunately, I don't know of any stories in which they reverse the transformation, basically leaving the innocent victim rooted to the ground as a plant for the rest of their lives.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      Woohoo, shapeshifting! Although this now brings up another concern as to what the Chinese PSP is going to be. Unless I'm mistaken, their PSP in 1st edition was all about transformation. One of their god level powers even gives you the option to pretty much remake any character from the ground up!
                      Well the PSP was partially teased in a preview. Looks like the Shen's PSP powers are all about bureaucracy. Seriously, the passive benefit is amazing for day-to-day affairs. Scions of the Shen are never bogged down with mortal bureaucracy. Like, their passports get approved at the fastest speeds, and they never have to wait too long at the DMV.


                      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Yeah lot of lazy decisions that didn't pan out well in first ed. :P
                        Please do not demean the efforts of the creators of Scion first edition. There are other ways to express your opinions. Thanks.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                          Well the PSP was partially teased in a preview. Looks like the Shen's PSP powers are all about bureaucracy. Seriously, the passive benefit is amazing for day-to-day affairs. Scions of the Shen are never bogged down with mortal bureaucracy. Like, their passports get approved at the fastest speeds, and they never have to wait too long at the DMV.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                            Yeah lot of lazy decisions that didn't pan out well in first ed. :P
                            I prefer to think of it as "Scion 1e had some good ideas that got weighed down at higher tiers... And unlike Exalted didn't have the benefit of such intense errata"


                            Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              So I think this will work out and be pretty cool, It can be more fun then the simple arete we had before. But I still have doubts. I mean a lot of peoples essentially viewed the gods as being able to take forms different from man. I think the thing is we just have more examples of Gods doing stuff in general for the Theoi because well there are a lot of Greek/Roman/Etruscan legends that survived compared to say the Aesir.

                              I mean it seemed Zeus had a greater degree of shapeshifting in his legends, what with turning ants into men, turning people into cows, turning himself into a "Golden Shower". But many of the other Gods were more toned down, they were usually just invisible or in the form of wind or air. Yeah Proteus could change form but that was his thing, representing the fluid nature of water. But it can be argued many of the other Pantheons have just as mutable shape as the Greek Myths. Like Zeus disguising himself as a mortal vagabond to observe Lykan Odin did this all the time as well, along with the rest of his pantheon. Sigurd was observed by gods in the form of birds. Loki turned into birds, and nuts, and horses, even Thor disgused himself as a boy when he went fishing.

                              Vishnu manifested as everything from a Dwarf, to a Boar, to a fishman or a boy, arguably more mutable then Zeus' myths.

                              So I will fully embrace their schtik as shapeshifters, I still have the nagging in the back of my head that giving them Shapeshifting as their "thing" seems a lot like giving Jotunblut to the Aesir. Something that was viewed as a clever new interpretation to make them stand out but really having some questionable issues.

                              Regarding Vishnu...the Hindu Gods rarely if ever shape-shift...what you're describing is Incarnation, Avataran, not Shape-shifting, which is a thing Asura tend to do more often than not. Vishnu's not turning INTO a boar, he's manifesting an Incarnation of himself that IS a boar. It's a fundamental difference of PSP Philosophy. Metamorphosis is about changing how things are, Yoga is about union with the Supreme Reality of Brahman...having united with the underlying Reality of all things, Vishnu already IS all things, and he is therefore just spawning off a part of him that is a boar. Similarly when Parvati turns into Kali, or vice versa, she's not shape-shifting to just look different...Parvati and Kali are two aspects of the same Goddess, the gentle nurturing Mother and Nature Red in tooth and Claw all in One.

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