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Any Doubts about the Theoi having Shapeshifting as their Pantheon Purview?

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  • #31
    Okay, I demand that Metamorphosis have a power called "This Isn't Even My Final Form!"


    "We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
    Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    • #32
      Originally posted by unnatural1 View Post
      Okay, I demand that Metamorphosis have a power called "This Isn't Even My Final Form!"


      I demand it has a power called "They Went That-A-Way!"

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Neall View Post
        Theoi Signature Purview: Metamorphosis
        You take on a form that is symbolically associated with one of your other Purviews.
        Good thinking making sure it says *other* Purviews, because if it just said "symbolically associated with one of your Purviews", I know there would be players trying to be clever by insisting that every imaginable form is symbolically associated with the Transformation Purview itself.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Noneofyourbusiness View Post

          Good thinking making sure it says *other* Purviews, because if it just said "symbolically associated with one of your Purviews", I know there would be players trying to be clever by insisting that every imaginable form is symbolically associated with the Transformation Purview itself.

          That would be shenanigans! And one of your other purviews being the point of the power.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #35
            Metamorphosis + Earth = An animated statue made of flawless marble


            Metamorphosis + Water = A reflection in a clear pool


            Metamorphosis + Sky = A surprisingly accurate formation of clouds


            Metamorphosis + Fire = A silhouette dancing in the flames of a warm hearth

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            • #36
              That's not exactly what I was expecting, but I really like it I was a little worried that PSPs like Metamorphosis and Possession might feel a little too 'one-track' as compared to some of the others, but given this Purview evolves into monster-spawning, looks like I had no reason to be worried.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Samudra View Post
                That's not exactly what I was expecting, but I really like it I was a little worried that PSPs like Metamorphosis and Possession might feel a little too 'one-track' as compared to some of the others, but given this Purview evolves into monster-spawning, looks like I had no reason to be worried.

                Monster spawning alone makes it worth adding to the repertoire!

                Also, worth noting the things I listed above were just examples that I personally came up with.

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                • #38
                  I wonder if Tricksters with large form libraries (like Sun Wukong and Loki) will have a specific Shapeshifting purview (that isn't Metamorphoses of course)?

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                  • #39
                    They have specific Immortal Trickster Knacks that allow them to augment disguises and make them real.


                    Neall Raemonn Price
                    Beleaguered Scion Developer

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                      I wonder if Tricksters with large form libraries (like Sun Wukong and Loki) will have a specific Shapeshifting purview (that isn't Metamorphoses of course)?


                      They should. Part of Sun Wukong's entire legend is that he has 72 transformations.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Neall View Post
                        They have specific Immortal Trickster Knacks that allow them to augment disguises and make them real.
                        Ooh, that sounds neat. Looking forward to reading about that then. (I suppose the Tricksters with more Iconic shapes like Anansi or Coyote will have their Shapeshifting provided for by their Animal specific Purview)

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                          Woohoo, shapeshifting!


                          Really, the whole Arete thing from 1st edition was just excessive baggage to a system that was already broken with OP ridiculousness.


                          Although this now brings up another concern as to what the Chinese PSP is going to be. Unless I'm mistaken, their PSP in 1st edition was all about transformation. One of their god level powers even gives you the option to pretty much remake any character from the ground up!
                          When I wrote my own capsule explanations of pantheons, their Virtues and their PSPs for my players, here's how I explained the basis of Srete:
                          ------
                          Arete
                          How did little city-states in Greece and Italy rise to conquer half the ancient World and shape all civilization to come? Their people did it by being the best: the best generals, such as Alexander and Julius Caesar; the best savants, such as Aristotle and Archimedes; the best politicians, such as Pericles and Augustus; the best authors to propagate their tales and deeds, such as Homer and Virgil; the best at being the best. The Dodekatheon’s special Purview takes its name from the Greek word for excellence, Arete. Gods easily surpass mortal skill, but Dodekatheon members surpass even other Gods — at least in a few chosen fields. Dodekatheon characters buy Arete to increase their prowess at selected endeavors even higher than what they achieve through Abilities, Attributes and Epic Attributes. Many Dodekatheon are considerably more powerful than their lists of associated Epic Attributes and Purviews would suggest, because of their Arete with numerous mundane Abilities.
                          ------
                          So I don't think it was a bad conceptual choice (especially after I rewrote Arete to make it less of a point sink). But as I found out running my campaign, the dice engine shows strain even at Legend 4, and adding another source of bonus successes just does not help. So I think that Arete could only "work" as the PSP for the Greco-Roman Gods with a radical reworking of underlying systems. (Which I gather has been done, though I haven't followed the teasers.)

                          Metamorphosis is such a common theme through Classical mythology that a Purview for it is at least as strong a concept, though, if not stronger. But as Nyrufa and others have pointed out, transformation and self-transformation are important in other mythologies, too -- including Chinese mythology.

                          Taiyi, the PSP I created for the Shen back in Scion Companion, does indeed involve a great deal of transformation and self-transformation. (It does other things, too.) I designed it to emulate the feats I found Gods and immortals doing in my research of Chinese mythology -- many Boons or examples of their use are taken directly from Chinese sources, especially the Fengshen Yanyi -- and I did my best to tie it all together through Taoist metaphysics, which is all about the mutability of forms and energies.

                          A replacement PSP based on bureaucracy? Well, I'll have to see the final result before I venture an opinion. At that time, I'll examine it based on my own research in Chinese mythology. And I may be back here, asking for a list of sources and the reasons for design choices.

                          At this point, though, I wonder if the whole premise of the Pantheon-Specific Purview is a good one. Like, Japanese mythology is not the only one to feature a multifarious, pantheistic spirit world, so shouldn't a Purview based on interacting with such spirits be general? Transformation and self-transformation, likewise. Or are PSPs no longer quite so specific?

                          Dean Shomshak

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DShomshak View Post

                            When I wrote my own capsule explanations of pantheons, their Virtues and their PSPs for my players, here's how I explained the basis of Srete:
                            ------
                            Arete
                            How did little city-states in Greece and Italy rise to conquer half the ancient World and shape all civilization to come? Their people did it by being the best: the best generals, such as Alexander and Julius Caesar; the best savants, such as Aristotle and Archimedes; the best politicians, such as Pericles and Augustus; the best authors to propagate their tales and deeds, such as Homer and Virgil; the best at being the best. The Dodekatheon’s special Purview takes its name from the Greek word for excellence, Arete. Gods easily surpass mortal skill, but Dodekatheon members surpass even other Gods — at least in a few chosen fields. Dodekatheon characters buy Arete to increase their prowess at selected endeavors even higher than what they achieve through Abilities, Attributes and Epic Attributes. Many Dodekatheon are considerably more powerful than their lists of associated Epic Attributes and Purviews would suggest, because of their Arete with numerous mundane Abilities.
                            ------
                            So I don't think it was a bad conceptual choice (especially after I rewrote Arete to make it less of a point sink). But as I found out running my campaign, the dice engine shows strain even at Legend 4, and adding another source of bonus successes just does not help. So I think that Arete could only "work" as the PSP for the Greco-Roman Gods with a radical reworking of underlying systems. (Which I gather has been done, though I haven't followed the teasers.)

                            Metamorphosis is such a common theme through Classical mythology that a Purview for it is at least as strong a concept, though, if not stronger. But as Nyrufa and others have pointed out, transformation and self-transformation are important in other mythologies, too -- including Chinese mythology.

                            Taiyi, the PSP I created for the Shen back in Scion Companion, does indeed involve a great deal of transformation and self-transformation. (It does other things, too.) I designed it to emulate the feats I found Gods and immortals doing in my research of Chinese mythology -- many Boons or examples of their use are taken directly from Chinese sources, especially the Fengshen Yanyi -- and I did my best to tie it all together through Taoist metaphysics, which is all about the mutability of forms and energies.

                            A replacement PSP based on bureaucracy? Well, I'll have to see the final result before I venture an opinion. At that time, I'll examine it based on my own research in Chinese mythology. And I may be back here, asking for a list of sources and the reasons for design choices.

                            At this point, though, I wonder if the whole premise of the Pantheon-Specific Purview is a good one. Like, Japanese mythology is not the only one to feature a multifarious, pantheistic spirit world, so shouldn't a Purview based on interacting with such spirits be general? Transformation and self-transformation, likewise. Or are PSPs no longer quite so specific?

                            Dean Shomshak


                            I'm happy there's an entire purview dedicated to the art of shapeshifting, but like you, I don't keep up to date on the teasers, so I'm skeptical on it being a PSp exclusive to the Greeks. Mythology is loaded to the brim with gods, goddesses, heroes, villains, demons, and everything else having the power to change its shape. So unless they come up with a very convincing explanation for why the Theoi, of all pantheons, gets special dibs on it, I'm a bit hesitant to approve of its PSP element.

                            I mean you can mimic the effects of shapeshifting with the Animal, Health and Illusion (If it's still in use) Purviews, I guess. But then why have shapeshifting if three other Purviews can accomplish the same thing?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DShomshak View Post
                              At this point, though, I wonder if the whole premise of the Pantheon-Specific Purview is a good one. Like, Japanese mythology is not the only one to feature a multifarious, pantheistic spirit world, so shouldn't a Purview based on interacting with such spirits be general? Transformation and self-transformation, likewise. Or are PSPs no longer quite so specific?
                              Not to derail the thread, but that's actually a really good question that I don't... know if is asked often enough. I personally think PsPs totally belong, but there has never really been any unifying idea of what a PsP is, and a lot of the time the PsP isn't really actually unique to the Pantheon such as the old Kami or Loa PsPs, both concepts being pretty common globally. I think PsPs flourish when they are able to 'latch onto' a specific cultural detail of that Pantheon and sort of bring it to life. So, the Tuatha having an obsessive set of powers based on their social standing, the Teotl needing blood to fuel themselves, the Shiunesh needing mortals to wait on them hand and foot. A PsP that alters an existing mechanical system, like giving the Orisha and the Aesir slightly different versions of the base Fate system for example, I think is the sort of are a PsP can really... exist well? It's sort of hard to explain. I don't know if big flashy powers work, but sort of a more cosmological approach, letting each Pantheon's 'really unique cultural detail' flourish mechanically.

                              PsPs that are more than just a set of powers I feel have always been the best. It can take some real work to make it mechanically good, but the opportunities well crafted PsPs can provide are awesome. I like the idea of the Shen PsP being based around the internal Pantheon bureaucratic system, at least how I imagine it, especially at higher levels. The Shen are tricky, we've talked about them before, spanning millennium, and several distinct religious and philosophical positions. Tapping into the bureaucracy of the cosmology I think could be really amazing to differentiate the Shen, while... like, sort of side stepping the mess that their whole system is otherwise? I'm imagining things like Demigod Boons giving you a weird minor position in the Celestial Bureaucracy which has some associated responsibilities for the Scion, but also giving them a system to tap into.

                              Although, I will admit I'm honestly just a huge sucker for fancy titles which I'm hoping are lurking somewhere in the God-level of that PsP. The Arch-Bursar of Unknown Queries or other appropriately True-Fey-y titles, just love that stuff, no clue why.
                              Last edited by Watcher; 02-09-2017, 07:41 PM.

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