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  • What it takes to be a god.

    I was going to post this in the ask neall thread. but i realized that i wanted the opinions of everybody not just neall so i thought it's own topic would work better. i was wondering about what makes gods powerful. so i tried to think about the things all gods have in common, they're all powerful obviously, but what they do with the power is more important than the power itself. Set killed his brother in a much more larger than life way than any murder before him, an act of betrayal bigger than any , zeus won a battle agains the king of the universe aand became the king himsel, an act of battle and overthrowing bigger than any other.
    The question, would they still be gods if they hadnn't? If set decided he doesn't really care aabout his brother and just stayed in his lane minding his own bussines would he still be legend 12, would zeus be legend 12 if he chose to stay in his lane and not challenge kronos for fear of losing? would they still be powerful regardless?
    Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 02-07-2017, 06:47 PM.

  • #2
    My Onions...



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    • #3
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
      My Onions...


      i'm still forgetful as all hades

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      • #4
        Lots and lots of chin-ups.

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        • #5
          No serious answer?

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          • #6
            The answer is that there is no consistent, common feature that makes someone a God. It varies Pantheon to Pantheon. Scion is somewhat tricky in this regard since it sort of makes all Gods Gods, when a Theoi, a Teotl, and a Dia are all incredibly different beings who may not even recognize the others as being exactly like themselves. What makes them powerful also varies Pantheon to Pantheon, it's all a sort of mess.

            If they hadn't taken the actions they did in their Myths, they might or might not still be Gods. The Theoi would, since being a God is a species to them for example. If Tenjin of the Kami did not do what he did, if he was not as important, or influential as a mortal, he would not have been a God as he was originally a mortal who underwent Apotheosis.

            Would they still be Legend 12? Well, maybe? The way we know someone is Legend 12 tends to be from their power displayed in myths, or really crazy cult worship. So, if they didn't have any myths (as sometimes happens such as with some Hittite Deities) they might not be Legend 12 unless they are crazy important religiously. If Zeus never undertook any of the deeds he did mythically, but was worshiped exactly the same amount, he would probably still be Legend 12, really important dude. But if, say, Lugh had never taken any action, he probably wouldn't be Legend 12 since we have no record of him having any real cult worship in Ireland, not anything concrete anyways.

            It's... kind of complicated, the Legend 12 bit since it's purely a game-perspective thing.
            Last edited by Watcher; 02-07-2017, 08:37 PM.

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            • #7
              Power, the willingness to use it, and the recognition by someone that you exist and are worthy of worship/respect/notice. Being an all-powerful but anonymous being doesn't really make you a God, simply because you are unknown [the old "tree falling in the forest" argument]. "Power" can mean "I am the God of Storms", or it can mean "I am the Demigod of Art" - it doesn't mean Creators or War Gods only. But you have to be recognized as a superior practitioner of your chosen/granted purview, and you have to be willing and able to do something with your power. That's the "definition" of a God/Goddess, IMHO.

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              • #8
                I think in another thread, Neall mentioned that in the universe of Scion, you don't really have to identify yourself as a God. It's something people know just by looking at you. Almost CERTAINLY not in a way that they could put their fingers on.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                • #9
                  I remember Baba Yaga was mentioned a few times as an example of something that blurs the line regarding divinity. The threshold is usually at Legend 8 to Legend 9, and she's definitely crossed that. She's not a god, but she isn't not a god either.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                    Power, the willingness to use it, and the recognition by someone that you exist and are worthy of worship/respect/notice. Being an all-powerful but anonymous being doesn't really make you a God, simply because you are unknown [the old "tree falling in the forest" argument]. "Power" can mean "I am the God of Storms", or it can mean "I am the Demigod of Art" - it doesn't mean Creators or War Gods only. But you have to be recognized as a superior practitioner of your chosen/granted purview, and you have to be willing and able to do something with your power. That's the "definition" of a God/Goddess, IMHO.


                    When you get right down to it, the Gods are galactic leaders. Mortals worship them because they desire protection, guidance, or aid. Except while a mortal leader may be restricted to a specific nation, the Gods are placed in charge on a cosmic scale, and their authority doesn't recognize foreign borders. If the Gods straight up ignored the plights of mortals, well then, nobody would genuinely worship them. What would be the point of doing so if your prayers go unheard?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                      The answer is that there is no consistent, common feature that makes someone a God. It varies Pantheon to Pantheon. Scion is somewhat tricky in this regard since it sort of makes all Gods Gods, when a Theoi, a Teotl, and a Dia are all incredibly different beings who may not even recognize the others as being exactly like themselves. What makes them powerful also varies Pantheon to Pantheon, it's all a sort of mess.

                      If they hadn't taken the actions they did in their Myths, they might or might not still be Gods. The Theoi would, since being a God is a species to them for example. If Tenjin of the Kami did not do what he did, if he was not as important, or influential as a mortal, he would not have been a God as he was originally a mortal who underwent Apotheosis.

                      Would they still be Legend 12? Well, maybe? The way we know someone is Legend 12 tends to be from their power displayed in myths, or really crazy cult worship. So, if they didn't have any myths (as sometimes happens such as with some Hittite Deities) they might not be Legend 12 unless they are crazy important religiously. If Zeus never undertook any of the deeds he did mythically, but was worshiped exactly the same amount, he would probably still be Legend 12, really important dude. But if, say, Lugh had never taken any action, he probably wouldn't be Legend 12 since we have no record of him having any real cult worship in Ireland, not anything concrete anyways.

                      It's... kind of complicated, the Legend 12 bit since it's purely a game-perspective thing.
                      when you think about it. The only thing gods from different pantheon have I common is power. otherwise everything is different. but where does that power came from?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                        when you think about it. The only thing gods from different pantheon have I common is power. otherwise everything is different. but where does that power came from?
                        Power is a pretty major defining source of Divinity, though, once again we see the Pantheons being really annoying and the source of their Power differs Pantheon to Pantheon. I can give a little breakdown of a collection of different Pantheons and how they... 'work' I guess?
                        • The Tuatha are presented as a Species, sort of, but their power is certainly not innate in their entity. Power is something that you have gotten, trained in essentially. You have the Tuatha described as great magicians, their knowledge of magic being something overwhelming and awesome. Similarly to this, Skills sort of exist in a semi-magical role. A great warrior knows a series of what appear to be semi-magical feats, such as The Salmon Leap or CuChulain cutting all of the hair off a man. The Tuatha's power is drawn through learned skills we can see. Also there is a great importance for Relics, magical objects. The Tuatha are rocking some of the most powerful Relics of the Pantheons, the Deva being greater, but they function at a far more massive sense of scale than the Irish.
                        • The Theoi and the Shiunesh (Hittites) both have innate inborn power. Ares is a War God, he is inherently a War God, not having any learned skills, or tools to provide him with this capacity. These Pantheons are sort of defined through their in-born power, and their very being sort of getting close to the concept. Ares is War, chaotic and violent. Tarhun is the Storms, booming, and dominant, that sort of thing. The Theoi and Shiunesh draw their power through their very being, they have power because they are Gods.
                        • The Anunna are an interesting bridging point between some ideas. The Gods are powerful, they are better than us, mighty and just an overwhelming awing force. However, they are given authority in specific areas, the Gods awarded Mes by one of their elder Deities, and these Mes are sort of like divine writs of authority over aspects of reality. Mes of prostitution, war, magic, fertility, animals, that sort of thing. The Mes can be given away, and stripped from Deities in various situations, showing that the Gods don't have any inherent power in themselves, but their power is drawn through these Mes.
                        • The Shen exist in a similar place as the Anunna, sometimes. Some entities, such as Nuwa, are inherently divine entities capable of great skills, such as the Theoi and the Shiunesh. However, at the same time their focus on mortals being uplifted to the status of Deity has power as something they can inherit from being a Deity. However, a lot of these entities, from what I know from the organization of the Shen, is that these Deified entities don't really have inborn power, past basic 'Deity' stuff. Their actual Purviews are drawn through their positions within the bureaucratic system which oversees the functioning of reality. When you become the Senior-Advisor to the Deputy Minister of the Yellow River, you probably have some influence over Water.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post

                          when you think about it. The only thing gods from different pantheon have I common is power. otherwise everything is different. but where does that power came from?
                          To continue Watcher's list, the Deva draw Power from Brahman, the Single Undivided Reality that is the basis for the World and all the Realms above, below, besides and within it. Through the practice of Yoga (literally 'addition' or 'joining') the Hindu Gods and their followers become One with That Which Is All (or, depending on exactly how you interpret it, realize that they were One all along), and the resulting Oneness is the source of all Power in Hinduism...basically, once you've realized that You are the Universe, causing, or becoming, a Miracle is as easy as blinking.

                          According to popular interpretation, Brahma Vishnu and Shiva are either the closest to Unity with Brahman, or are the Three Original Manifestations of Brahman and this is why they are the Trimurti.

                          A related concept is Shakti, the Sanskrit word for Power...meaning everything from the energy you use to move, to the electricity powering your toaster, to the cosmic dance of galaxies, to the Legendary miracles of the Gods. If Brahman IS all things, then Shakti is the Power to DO all things, if Brahman is All-Powerful, Shakti is All-Power, and the two are not separate things, being, rather, Passive and Active forms of the same thing. Shakti is embodied in the Goddesses, since in Hinduism the Active Dynamic Aspect of Existence is Female and the Inert Static Aspect is Male, in a twist on the more popular Yin Yang system.

                          And just as Brahma Vishnu and Shiva are the Three Original Manifestations of Brahman, Sarasvati Lakshmi and Parvati/Kali are the Three Original Manifestations of Shakti, each empowering her husband with the Power he needs to carry out his part in the Cycle.

                          Of course, Hinduism being the ridiculously branching and forking thing that it is, you will undoubtedly find sects and strains that disagree with parts of that, but it's a good point to start from nonetheless

                          Incidentally, have I mentioned how much I love that Yoga is the Deva PSP now? Cuz I love it
                          Last edited by Samudra; 02-08-2017, 04:12 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Hmm. Since discussing real-life religion is obviously not the topic of this thread, I'll go ahead and assume this is about storytelling.
                            And in stories, what makes a divine being different from mortals is not always power (although it is an important attribute). Tales of gods failing at something, or having to work hard for their goals, are too widespread for that.
                            I believe what we should be looking at is - the awe they inspire. The sheer metaphysical importance of these beings. Because, first and foremost, they are numinous. And they matter in the grand scheme of things.
                            This does not mean they are unapproachable or alien. They still have personalities, strengths and weaknesses, they act - and it's not fake. But there is always more. There is always something transcendent hidden by the mist.
                            When Inanna disappears, when Demeter misses her daughter, when Telipinu is in hiding - the world itself is diminished. When Indra killed Vritra - it was much more than a victory against a monster, or the end of a physical drought.
                            The level on which gods operate is one we can touch only in moments of great inspiration. And, while a character in a story may forget, the storyteller should keep this in mind.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Xanthias View Post
                              Hmm. Since discussing real-life religion is obviously not the topic of this thread, I'll go ahead and assume this is about storytelling.
                              And in stories, what makes a divine being different from mortals is not always power (although it is an important attribute). Tales of gods failing at something, or having to work hard for their goals, are too widespread for that.
                              I believe what we should be looking at is - the awe they inspire. The sheer metaphysical importance of these beings. Because, first and foremost, they are numinous. And they matter in the grand scheme of things.
                              This does not mean they are unapproachable or alien. They still have personalities, strengths and weaknesses, they act - and it's not fake. But there is always more. There is always something transcendent hidden by the mist.
                              When Inanna disappears, when Demeter misses her daughter, when Telipinu is in hiding - the world itself is diminished. When Indra killed Vritra - it was much more than a victory against a monster, or the end of a physical drought.
                              The level on which gods operate is one we can touch only in moments of great inspiration. And, while a character in a story may forget, the storyteller should keep this in mind.
                              I Hope Scion offers the possibility of someone reaching godhood if they manage do to something like this even if theyre not scions

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