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  • Haida Titans

    A while back, when I was working on the UDL, Watcher gave an excellent and detailed description of the Haida pantheon. They detailed the gods to a great degree and mentioned in passing that there were several possible Titans in Haida mythology. I was wondering if Watcher would be willing to give some details about them because I'm pretty curious. Thanks!

  • #2
    Oh sure, I can talk about the figures I have pegged as potential Titans in my research of the Sgā’na Qeda’s. Somewhat similarly to the Ashanti, the Haida have one Supreme God named Sîns sgā’nagwa-i. He has very limited involvement however after a story of his birth, or possibly an incarnation of himself, it's not super clear if he made himself, or he came to be after the world was already created. However, unlike the Ashanti with Nyame, Sîns sgā’nagwa-i is not a policing force for the Supernatural Beings of the culture, so there are some actual antagonistic entities. However, none of them really reach the apocalyptic heights we see in some other regions. There is also no clear dividing line along political groups of the Divine as we see with some Pantheons, such as the Hittite or Irish Pantheons. So, I have flagged these beings as being Titans in my research due to their mono-conceptual natures, and a few instances of major antagonism with mortals.

    Ha-ilī’las is The Small Pox, a being who rides along the coastline in a large ship similar to those the Europeans arrived with rather than the native canoe. As one might expect, this is probably due to the massive small pox epidemics really kicking off after larger-scale European arrival in the area. Ha-ilī’las is not antagonistic, not really, but he is a living embodiment of a sickness that almost destroyed the Haida nation, so he's not the sort of person you want to be around. He has sent sickness out when displeased as well, such as when he married one of the Moon's daughters, and she was taken back home by one of her brothers.

    Tia is Death by Violence, but isn't really an antagonistic entity. He just happens to always be around when someone is going to die by violence, except, it's not super-duper clear which comes first. Does Tia show up, and thus doom people to die violently? Or does he only show up when someone is going to die violently? It's not super clear. Either way, you don't really want to be around Tia. He seems to have a thing for being headless though when he physically manifests, a headless bird and a headless human both are forms he shows up in. Further, he only ever repeats his own name 'Tia,' over and over again. I am ashamed that I apparently failed to write down specifically what this means, but I believe it means 'to kill' or 'to murder,' something like that. I need to quickly check that book again before I move and make a note of that.

    Xe-ū is a good, old-fashioned Titan. He is the Southeast Wind, and was loosing horrific storms on mortals, leading to the intervention by Watghadagaang, the great carpenter Supernatural Being of the Haida. One of the beings I have flagged for 'Divine Parent' stuff. The pair of the clash, and even after calling up all of his relatives, from storm clouds to tidal waves, Xe-ū is defeated. He is not pure evil however, I don't think any of the Haida Supernatural Beings are really. He saves his daughter when another being tries to freeze her to death, so, maybe he just isn't keen on mortals.

    HI’liñA is the Thunderbird. Honestly, no real mythic tradition for him. The Haida think he lives way further north in the territory of Haida Gwaii, and that other First Nations groups who live closer to him probably understand him more. He is a giant bird that causes thunder by rustling his feathers, causes lightning when he blinks, and hangs out on top of a mountain. I just really want to include them since I found it very interesting that the Haida felt he was somewhat foreign to themselves. I thought it was a good bit of groundwork to have in case I look into writing other First Nations Pantheons in the region.

    Those are the beings I have flagged for being the most likely Titans. There is not a plethora of them, not like with the Hittites who have armfuls of Titans honestly. But, I think they will each be fun figures to have involved in people's games. I hopefully will find some more interesting figures in my research, there is one other entity I have on a list that I'm not talking about since he is... particularly tricky. I'm going to need to spend a lot of time seeing if I can find any more details to iron out a bit that is confusing me with him. Though, I think it is something I am going to have to make a judgement call over, and leave a note in a sidebar explaining the choice, and how to handle it differently.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks so much for the detailed response! Those Titans sound really unique and pretty cool. Now you've got me curious about the Hittite Titans. My knowledge of Hittite mythology is not currently the best (though I have access to sources that go over it well, I haven't had much of a chance to go to deeply into them. I'm kind of trying to master a few dozen mythologies at once, and it isn't easy.) If it isn't to inconvenient for you would you mind giving an overview of their Titans as well, and maybe list which gods you have pegged as the most important? I can research the gods pretty easily, but I'd love for some details about the Titans.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
        Thanks so much for the detailed response! Those Titans sound really unique and pretty cool. Now you've got me curious about the Hittite Titans. My knowledge of Hittite mythology is not currently the best (though I have access to sources that go over it well, I haven't had much of a chance to go to deeply into them. I'm kind of trying to master a few dozen mythologies at once, and it isn't easy.) If it isn't to inconvenient for you would you mind giving an overview of their Titans as well, and maybe list which gods you have pegged as the most important? I can research the gods pretty easily, but I'd love for some details about the Titans.
        Ah yeah, sure, I can talk about the Hittite Titans. Myself and Iry are actually having a conversation tonight going over what has been written thus far.

        So, for the Hittites, the division between God and Titan is pretty much just political. The Hittite Gods could all be Titans in pretty much anyone else's mythology, they don't have the best relationship with their mortals. Hittite myth is this big political struggle between two families of Gods, back and forth, over and over through the years. Reading through the creation myth and divine struggles I have written up for the opening of the Pantheon will be pretty important to understand exactly why there is this stark political division, but it's pretty much just a kingship struggle going back and forth between two families.

        The Gods are the family, or entities who have sided with the children of Anu, now lead by Tarhun. The Titans are the family of Alalu, now lead by Kumarbi. The whole epic is the struggle between these two families, but it takes place well after the world was created. We don't actually have their creation myth, lost to time, but we know that there are 'Primeval Gods' who created everything, and they almost all just hang out in the Underworld except for one who is still a mover and shaker.

        The tricky thing about just listing the beings myself and Sacerdos have pegged for 'Divine Parent' status is that they are all merged entities. Not, like, 'Watcher merged a bunch of stuff because they were close conceptually and he was lazy,' but merged as in 'Imperial policy over the entire period of Hittite domination was mass merging of Deities in order to help stabilize Imperial rule, and was amazingly successful.' It's kind of hard to explain in less than several hundred words, so I'll leave it to show off when the Pantheon is finished. It's one of the main cultural notes. So, I'm going to refrain from listing the entire Pantheon list since it might cause confusion without that big explanation, and giving all of the different names of each entity.

        But, Titans are a bit easier, I can list them.

        Aruna is the Sea God (though I have him as a Titan). He's technically a 'third party' in the whole War in Heaven situation, but he backs Kumarbi through the struggles, and causes a lot of problems. Steals the Sun God one time, marries his gargantuan serpentine daughter to Kumarbi, secrets away some of Kumarbi's sons, generally is an enemy of the Gods. He's not imprisoned though, just continues doing his thing.

        Hahhima is something I can only refer to as an 'Entity.' No one's totally sure what he is, or where he came from, a lot of the tablet about him is damaged. But, he seems to be some sort of Cold or Winter personification, bringing destruction and stasis onto the world. He almost kills the entire Pantheon, or he might have actually been successful, the section where that might have happened is gone. (Essentially, the story cuts off with Tarhun dying, and unable to save himself or any of the other Deities) Only the return of the Sun God (a different instance of him getting kidnapped than with Aruna) manages to... solve the problem. Again, the details are lost, but the problem is dealt with. Interestingly, Hahhima is a free agent, he isn't part of the divine wars, he just shows up one day. Nearly ends creation, and is barely dealt with.

        Kumarbi is the previous King of Heaven, and sort of this super-virile ex-king. When he is dethroned by his son Tarhun, he spends the rest of his time just trying (sometimes successfully for a while) to dethrone Tarhun by having a myriad of powerful Divine children. He's not really evil, he just wants to defeat Tarhun, and has a bunch of powerful Titans as kids. His story is actually quite long and neat, but I don't want to fill up my post with just him.

        Kurunta is a weird Titan, and sort of encapsulates the mortal-divine relationship. He is a hunting entity, worshiped by mortals, but single-handedly defeats Tarhun and his sibling War Deity to claim the throne for himself, one of Kumarbi's kiddos. In his rule, he is generous to mortals through his extreme laziness, they live essentially in Eden, and this freaks out all of the Primordial Gods, the Gods, and the Titans. They're not cool with this, mortals are not worshiping them, not slaving away for them, and not respecting them. So everyone agrees to dethrone Kurunta and try again, even his father Kumarbi.

        Illuyanka isn't actually part of the divine war between the families, he's another third party. Giant serpent, defeats Tarhun, takes parts of his body, that sort of thing. Honestly, Illuyanka is a totally reasonable authority figure, he's not evil, just a big-ass snake who seems entirely capable of ruling. Has his own court for a bit. But, Tarhun overthrows him and kills his family, etc etc. This is probably the story or stories that inspired the Greek story of Typhon and Zeus, the Greeks at the time of the Hittites were living in its shadow, Illium was a border region that was a client kingdom of the Hittites for example. We actually have Hittite records musing that it fell at one point but was quickly retaken when the Hittite army rolled in to deal with the problem.

        Ullikummi is a big stone giant, and by big, I mean like can stand in the ocean and brush his head on the sky big. One of Kumarbi's kids with a big rock he had sex with. This one actually requires the intervention of the one Primeval God who still plays around with creation to deal with. His approach caused Tarhun to fall into a depression for his the giant's body was utterly unbreakable until the intervention by a Primeval God.

        Ushhuni is a horrible, cruel son of Kumarbi who defeats the Gods, claims Kingship, and is essentially a sociopathic monster. Pulls the Sun and Moon out of the sky and nearly butchers them alive until in their pleading for their lives they mention that if he kills them everything will be dark. Scary thing? He's a Scion. Half-mortal, one of Kumarbi's sons with a mortal. We have no idea how he was defeated, but he is the only biological Scion on record for the Hittites. Ushhuni is pretty much the only super-duper actually evil entity that's running around. He's like Bres if Bres was strong enough to fight the entire Pantheon and win easily. He was so bad that Kumarbi (or Anu, it's sort of unclear which of them) steps in to overthrow him since things have Gotten Out Of Hand, but he manages to also defeat them.

        Hedammu is a big... thing. Kumarbi's child with Aruna's giant bestial daughter, Hedammu is this giant sea monster that is only managed to be dealt with after bring lured out of the sea by the Love Deity. Thing is, even the Love Deity couldn't make Hedammu love them, all it wanted to do was eat, and eat, and eat. Essentially, the Love Deity successfully seduces Hedammu to lure him out of the sea so Tarhun can kill him, but Hedammu can't feel love. All he can feel is hunger, and the seduction only makes him frantic to consume the Love Deity alive.

        There are also a big bunch of the Primeval Gods we have enough records of to do something with. They are all for the most part neutral and don't get involved though. My personal favorite is Ubelluri though. All of creation is built upon his frame, he is a giant of giants, so massive that every event in Hittite myth takes place on his body. He stands with heaven, earth, the seas, and presumably the Underworld nailed to his body, and he never notices the weight of all creation on him. The only time he noticed something was when Ullikummi grew so large to reach from the surface to the roof of heaven, and only that was like an ant walking along an arm to him. He's essentially their Yggdrasil, except a person. He's up there for 'Strongest Entity Ever.' Atlas holds up the sky, Ubelluri holds up everything and everyone, but doesn't notice the weight at all.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks so much for the response! Ushhuni actually fits a role in the narrative I'm working on quite well, as does Xe-u. All the info you provide is always awesome!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Watcher View Post
            Oh sure, I can talk about the figures I have pegged as potential Titans in my research of the Sgā’na Qeda’s. Somewhat similarly to the Ashanti, the Haida have one Supreme God named Sîns sgā’nagwa-i. He has very limited involvement however after a story of his birth, or possibly an incarnation of himself, it's not super clear if he made himself, or he came to be after the world was already created. However, unlike the Ashanti with Nyame, Sîns sgā’nagwa-i is not a policing force for the Supernatural Beings of the culture, so there are some actual antagonistic entities. However, none of them really reach the apocalyptic heights we see in some other regions. There is also no clear dividing line along political groups of the Divine as we see with some Pantheons, such as the Hittite or Irish Pantheons. So, I have flagged these beings as being Titans in my research due to their mono-conceptual natures, and a few instances of major antagonism with mortals.

            Ha-ilī’las is The Small Pox, a being who rides along the coastline in a large ship similar to those the Europeans arrived with rather than the native canoe. As one might expect, this is probably due to the massive small pox epidemics really kicking off after larger-scale European arrival in the area. Ha-ilī’las is not antagonistic, not really, but he is a living embodiment of a sickness that almost destroyed the Haida nation, so he's not the sort of person you want to be around. He has sent sickness out when displeased as well, such as when he married one of the Moon's daughters, and she was taken back home by one of her brothers.

            Tia is Death by Violence, but isn't really an antagonistic entity. He just happens to always be around when someone is going to die by violence, except, it's not super-duper clear which comes first. Does Tia show up, and thus doom people to die violently? Or does he only show up when someone is going to die violently? It's not super clear. Either way, you don't really want to be around Tia. He seems to have a thing for being headless though when he physically manifests, a headless bird and a headless human both are forms he shows up in. Further, he only ever repeats his own name 'Tia,' over and over again. I am ashamed that I apparently failed to write down specifically what this means, but I believe it means 'to kill' or 'to murder,' something like that. I need to quickly check that book again before I move and make a note of that.

            Xe-ū is a good, old-fashioned Titan. He is the Southeast Wind, and was loosing horrific storms on mortals, leading to the intervention by Watghadagaang, the great carpenter Supernatural Being of the Haida. One of the beings I have flagged for 'Divine Parent' stuff. The pair of the clash, and even after calling up all of his relatives, from storm clouds to tidal waves, Xe-ū is defeated. He is not pure evil however, I don't think any of the Haida Supernatural Beings are really. He saves his daughter when another being tries to freeze her to death, so, maybe he just isn't keen on mortals.

            HI’liñA is the Thunderbird. Honestly, no real mythic tradition for him. The Haida think he lives way further north in the territory of Haida Gwaii, and that other First Nations groups who live closer to him probably understand him more. He is a giant bird that causes thunder by rustling his feathers, causes lightning when he blinks, and hangs out on top of a mountain. I just really want to include them since I found it very interesting that the Haida felt he was somewhat foreign to themselves. I thought it was a good bit of groundwork to have in case I look into writing other First Nations Pantheons in the region.

            Those are the beings I have flagged for being the most likely Titans. There is not a plethora of them, not like with the Hittites who have armfuls of Titans honestly. But, I think they will each be fun figures to have involved in people's games. I hopefully will find some more interesting figures in my research, there is one other entity I have on a list that I'm not talking about since he is... particularly tricky. I'm going to need to spend a lot of time seeing if I can find any more details to iron out a bit that is confusing me with him. Though, I think it is something I am going to have to make a judgement call over, and leave a note in a sidebar explaining the choice, and how to handle it differently.
            I've got two requests if it isn't too much trouble,could you tell me if it's true that the Sgā’na Qeda’s posses people in a manner similar to the Loa?
            and could you give a resume of the Titans of the tribes of the Amazonia jungle? The guarani,tupi and the rest? I'm Brazilian, but I don't know who to ask about thosevery guys
            Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 10-04-2017, 06:37 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
              I've got two requests if it isn't too much trouble,could you tell me if it's true that the Sgā’na Qeda’s posses people in a manner similar to the Loa? And could you give a resume of the Titans of the tribes of the Amazonia jungle? The guarani,tupi and the rest? I'm Brazilian, but I don't know who to ask about thosevery guys
              The Sgā’na Qeda’s do have a form of Divine Possession, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's similar to the Loa. Divine Possession is a really common religious concept that's present all over the world. The Kami have Divine Possession as an important part of their theological system, the Ashanti have an important method where the Abosom will possess one of their priests to respond to prayers directly (Nyame, Anansi and Asase Ya do not do this since they're not Abosom theologically speaking) the Oracle of Delphi skirts the line in some descriptions of exactly how it 'works,' that sort of thing. Divine Possession is one of the most common religious concepts that's kicking around the place.

              But, in simple terms, yeah, the Sgā’na Qeda’s do have a system of Divine Possession, though their 'Big' figures very rarely do it. Someone who is trained to be a Skā’ga, a shamanistic religious figure, will have a small collection of entities who they can ask to possess them in order to use their divine powers through the medium of the mortal's body. A Skā’ga is likely to start with one or two minor entities, and pick up a handful of more small figures through their lifetime. Unlike the Orisha / Loa where the big names, Shango, Eshu, etc can ride a mortal, the 'big names' of the Haida Pantheon don't. There are also very strict rules about how one has to live in order to be an appropriate vessel for the Supernatural Beings, a state called being "as clear as glass," is needed. Essentially, one needs to be spiritually clean. This is an ascetic process where one withdraws from one's community, fasts, consumes specific xi k’ulāng (semi-magical to magical plants), avoiding contact with menstrual blood, and drinking salt water. If one doesn't manage to live in this state, they can't be possessed by one of the Supernatural Beings.

              I don't know who Guarani Titans would be off the top of my head, but I can ask Griffinguy for you if you'd like, he's the only person I know who knows enough about the Guarani to speak on the subject.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                The Sgā’na Qeda’s do have a form of Divine Possession, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's similar to the Loa. Divine Possession is a really common religious concept that's present all over the world. The Kami have Divine Possession as an important part of their theological system, the Ashanti have an important method where the Abosom will possess one of their priests to respond to prayers directly (Nyame, Anansi and Asase Ya do not do this since they're not Abosom theologically speaking) the Oracle of Delphi skirts the line in some descriptions of exactly how it 'works,' that sort of thing. Divine Possession is one of the most common religious concepts that's kicking around the place.

                But, in simple terms, yeah, the Sgā’na Qeda’s do have a system of Divine Possession, though their 'Big' figures very rarely do it. Someone who is trained to be a Skā’ga, a shamanistic religious figure, will have a small collection of entities who they can ask to possess them in order to use their divine powers through the medium of the mortal's body. A Skā’ga is likely to start with one or two minor entities, and pick up a handful of more small figures through their lifetime. Unlike the Orisha / Loa where the big names, Shango, Eshu, etc can ride a mortal, the 'big names' of the Haida Pantheon don't. There are also very strict rules about how one has to live in order to be an appropriate vessel for the Supernatural Beings, a state called being "as clear as glass," is needed. Essentially, one needs to be spiritually clean. This is an ascetic process where one withdraws from one's community, fasts, consumes specific xi k’ulāng (semi-magical to magical plants), avoiding contact with menstrual blood, and drinking salt water. If one doesn't manage to live in this state, they can't be possessed by one of the Supernatural Beings.

                I don't know who Guarani Titans would be off the top of my head, but I can ask Griffinguy for you if you'd like, he's the only person I know who knows enough about the Guarani to speak on the subject.
                Thanks,and if you could ask him that'd be neat

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                  The Sgā’na Qeda’s do have a form of Divine Possession, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's similar to the Loa. Divine Possession is a really common religious concept that's present all over the world. The Kami have Divine Possession as an important part of their theological system, the Ashanti have an important method where the Abosom will possess one of their priests to respond to prayers directly (Nyame, Anansi and Asase Ya do not do this since they're not Abosom theologically speaking) the Oracle of Delphi skirts the line in some descriptions of exactly how it 'works,' that sort of thing. Divine Possession is one of the most common religious concepts that's kicking around the place.

                  But, in simple terms, yeah, the Sgā’na Qeda’s do have a system of Divine Possession, though their 'Big' figures very rarely do it. Someone who is trained to be a Skā’ga, a shamanistic religious figure, will have a small collection of entities who they can ask to possess them in order to use their divine powers through the medium of the mortal's body. A Skā’ga is likely to start with one or two minor entities, and pick up a handful of more small figures through their lifetime. Unlike the Orisha / Loa where the big names, Shango, Eshu, etc can ride a mortal, the 'big names' of the Haida Pantheon don't. There are also very strict rules about how one has to live in order to be an appropriate vessel for the Supernatural Beings, a state called being "as clear as glass," is needed. Essentially, one needs to be spiritually clean. This is an ascetic process where one withdraws from one's community, fasts, consumes specific xi k’ulāng (semi-magical to magical plants), avoiding contact with menstrual blood, and drinking salt water. If one doesn't manage to live in this state, they can't be possessed by one of the Supernatural Beings.

                  I don't know who Guarani Titans would be off the top of my head, but I can ask Griffinguy for you if you'd like, he's the only person I know who knows enough about the Guarani to speak on the subject.
                  Thanks,and if you could ask griffin that'd be neat,hee really cool

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                    I've got two requests if it isn't too much trouble,could you tell me if it's true that the Sgā’na Qeda’s posses people in a manner similar to the Loa?
                    and could you give a resume of the Titans of the tribes of the Amazonia jungle? The guarani,tupi and the rest? I'm Brazilian, but I don't know who to ask about thosevery guys
                    *claws way out of the ground, returns to post*

                    Now, there’s a ton of interesting stories and characters from across the various tribes in South America’s forests. A number of figures are interesting, but are effectively pantheons of one, such as Sinaa, the jaguar god of the Juruna/Yudya people. However, the Guarani are widespread enough that myths of theirs have been recorded.

                    So, the Guarani have a ready-made batch of Titans available in the form of Tau and his seven monstrous children. According to one account of Guarani creation myths, at some point after making humans, the creator god Tupa decided that humans needed some guidance, and so made two gods. One of them, Angatupyry, was the god of good who would set the good example. The other was Tau, an evil god who would serve as the bad example. The two of them were sent to live among the first people (who were often considered akin to gods themselves). I’d say that both of them could be considered Titans. When I was trying to write a Titan overview for the Guarani, I was going to make a Guardian Titan with both Angatupyry and Tau as avatars, Angatupyry representing benevolent guardianship while Tau represented greed and possessiveness.

                    Trouble arose when Tau became fixated on Kerana, an exceptionally beautiful woman, and tried to kidnap and rape her. His plot was initially foiled by Angatupyry and Kerana’s grandfather, Pytayovai (a god of courage and war), who beat him up and exiled him from the land. However, despite this exile, he would try again and prove successful, raping and impregnating Kerana. As punishment, Tupa’s wife, the moon goddess Arasy, would place a curse upon Tau’s children, turning them into monsters.

                    The firstborn son is possibly the most powerful of the bunch, the Teju-Jagua. This means "lizard-dog" and he lives up to that name, being a dragon made up of a giant iguana's body with seven dog heads attached. He could breathe fire and turn living things to stone just by looking at them. The only possible consolation is the fact that the seven heads make him unwieldy and he can't maneuver in tight spaces very well. Still, he was a force to be reckoned with, so much so that Tupa decided he had to magically calm him down, and stick him in a cave deep underground, then cover it with water, lest he destroy everything. This still wasn't enough to truly calm him, so he periodically needs to be fed fruits and honey to prevent him from going on a rage-frenzy, and his children, smaller dragons, still stalk the ponds and rivers waiting to chow down on unsuspecting visitors. He does provide the earth's fecundity (so he can sate his sweet tooth) and guards the treasures of the earth and water, which he likes to wallow in, covering himself in gold and jewels. He's sitting on a treasure trove to rival all the gods, and if you want to try and take it, be my guest.

                    The second kid was Mboi Tu'i, which means "snake parrot" and is exactly what it says on the tin. He's a giant snake with a parrot's head, and occasionally parrot feet. But not wings, for some reason. Anyways, he's actually the chillest member of the siblings, which is to say that he's still a murderous beast. His blood-red crest of feathers and horrible cry strike stark raving terror into mens' hearts, and he's known to snack on human flesh, but for the most part, he leaves people alone, serving as a guardian of waterways (specifically rivers and swamps) and the creatures within, the fish and amphibians are his charges. Still a monster, but not an ACTIVE monster...

                    That cannot be said of Monai, the third son, who's not just a monster, but really kind of a prick. Like his older brother, he's also a snake, but instead of a parrot's beak, he has two horns that can hypnotize people. He can also fly, typically moving through the treetops before slithering on air. He's the kid associated with the sky and open spaces, fields and suchnot. He's also a thief, raiding villages in secret, then laughing his ass off as the people accuse each other of being the thief.

                    Next is Jasy Jatere, which means "fragment of the moon", and he's the only one of the seven who isn't monstrous in appearance. That also means he's sometimes portrayed much more sympathetically, but not always. He's a small child carrying a staff, and he's in charge of yerba mate (an herb used to make a tea-like beverage grown in South America) and sleep, particularly the midday siesta. See, he likes to wander around the forest invisibly, but he preys on children who don't fall asleep during siesta time. Some legends says he merely plays with them, then sends them back to their beds when siestas are over... but many more tales are much darker. Some say that he feeds the kids herbs that turn them into crazy, feral beasts, some say that he tortures them in cages forever, and others say that he leads them unknowingly to his monstrous brothers (particularly Ao Ao) as a snack-delivery service.

                    Fifth on the list is Kurupi, who, like Jasy Jatere, is a small dwarfish humanoid. Unlike Jasy Jatere, Kurupi is hideous, an ugly, hairy creature with fur on his hands and feet above all else. The most distinctive feature, however, is his penis, which is so long that he has to coil it around his waist like a belt. And, as if that description wasn't enough to clue you in, he's the embodiment of fecundity and, in particular, rape. That's his superpower. He steals women and rapes them, but that's not his only option, because his penis is so dextrous that he can squeeze it through doors and windows or even through the cracks in the walls to rape women. And, hell, he's so virile that even if he DOESN'T have sex with you, no matter, just the slightest touch can knock a girl up. And those hairy feet mean that you can't hear his footsteps, so good luck protecting yourself from him. It's said that any child of a Kurupi becomes exactly like Kurupi himself, hairy, ugly, and fecund. Like Monai, he also likes to play tricks on farmers in between sexual escapades. Though, a farmer could spare themselves his mockery by leaving presents (typically honey and sweet fruit). He's similar to another Guarani mythical figure called Pombero, so much so that it's likely just an alias, and he's phonetically similar to the curupira, a breed of Amazonian forest-creature who are also short beings who trick people but are less about rape and more about protecting the forest, especially game animals...

                    Sixth is Ao Ao, pronounced "ow ow", which is an accurate representation of what you'll say when you meet him. He is the lord of the hills and mountains, where he lives with his many children. Described as an enormous peccary, an Amazonian wild pig, or else as a monstrous sheep, he differs from both creatures in that he's strictly carnivorous, with a taste for human flesh. And he's very proactive about getting it, and he is called the inventor or embodiment of cannibalism. He typically has Jasy Jatere bring him kids to munch on, but he's more than willing to go out and seek it. If he chooses a dude as his prey, that's it. He will chase you down and not stop until you are in his belly. The only way you can possibly avoid him is to climb a palm tree, whereupon he will circle it for a while, before howling in frustration and going off to find some other sap. Just make sure it's a palm tree, because any other species of tree, and he'll just dig out the roots and topple it over.

                    Last, and certainly not least, is the Luison, also called the Lobison or Huicho. While Teju-Jagua may be the most powerful, Luison is probably the most dangerous. He looks like a short, squat dog-man, and is called the ugliest of a series of ugly, ugly siblings. He has long and dirty hair, pail and sickly looking skin, and a constant stench of death and decay. He represents death, eating nothing but dead and decayed flesh, and patrolling graveyards at night. The touch of his cold, clammy hands was an omen that you were about to die. Like the European werewolves, Luison could spread his curse, turning humans into Luisons. Some say that it's passed on through his bite. Some say he has to run between your legs at night. The most enduring myth, however, is that the seventh son of any family will, like the seventh son of Tau and Kerana, be a Luison.

                    In one story, Monai was terrorizing a village and tried to woo a woman named Porasy. Porasy decided to agree, if all of his brothers could attend the ceremony deep in a cave. While the brothers partied and drank, the villagers prepared to seal the entrance and burn them all alive. When Porasy tried to leave, the Seven Children of Tau realized their mistake and kept her in there, hoping to escape with her. Porasy yelled for them to continue, and the villagers burnt them, supposedly killing them. For her sacrifice, Porasy became a constellation. I’d use this story as an interpretation of sealing these Titans in Tartarus.

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                    • #11
                      http://www.portalguarani.com/376_nar...r_colman_.html here's a source for the above, by the way

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by griffinguy24 View Post
                        *claws way out of the ground, returns to post*

                        Now, there’s a ton of interesting stories and characters from across the various tribes in South America’s forests. A number of figures are interesting, but are effectively pantheons of one, such as Sinaa, the jaguar god of the Juruna/Yudya people. However, the Guarani are widespread enough that myths of theirs have been recorded.

                        So, the Guarani have a ready-made batch of Titans available in the form of Tau and his seven monstrous children. According to one account of Guarani creation myths, at some point after making humans, the creator god Tupa decided that humans needed some guidance, and so made two gods. One of them, Angatupyry, was the god of good who would set the good example. The other was Tau, an evil god who would serve as the bad example. The two of them were sent to live among the first people (who were often considered akin to gods themselves). I’d say that both of them could be considered Titans. When I was trying to write a Titan overview for the Guarani, I was going to make a Guardian Titan with both Angatupyry and Tau as avatars, Angatupyry representing benevolent guardianship while Tau represented greed and possessiveness.

                        Trouble arose when Tau became fixated on Kerana, an exceptionally beautiful woman, and tried to kidnap and rape her. His plot was initially foiled by Angatupyry and Kerana’s grandfather, Pytayovai (a god of courage and war), who beat him up and exiled him from the land. However, despite this exile, he would try again and prove successful, raping and impregnating Kerana. As punishment, Tupa’s wife, the moon goddess Arasy, would place a curse upon Tau’s children, turning them into monsters.

                        The firstborn son is possibly the most powerful of the bunch, the Teju-Jagua. This means "lizard-dog" and he lives up to that name, being a dragon made up of a giant iguana's body with seven dog heads attached. He could breathe fire and turn living things to stone just by looking at them. The only possible consolation is the fact that the seven heads make him unwieldy and he can't maneuver in tight spaces very well. Still, he was a force to be reckoned with, so much so that Tupa decided he had to magically calm him down, and stick him in a cave deep underground, then cover it with water, lest he destroy everything. This still wasn't enough to truly calm him, so he periodically needs to be fed fruits and honey to prevent him from going on a rage-frenzy, and his children, smaller dragons, still stalk the ponds and rivers waiting to chow down on unsuspecting visitors. He does provide the earth's fecundity (so he can sate his sweet tooth) and guards the treasures of the earth and water, which he likes to wallow in, covering himself in gold and jewels. He's sitting on a treasure trove to rival all the gods, and if you want to try and take it, be my guest.

                        The second kid was Mboi Tu'i, which means "snake parrot" and is exactly what it says on the tin. He's a giant snake with a parrot's head, and occasionally parrot feet. But not wings, for some reason. Anyways, he's actually the chillest member of the siblings, which is to say that he's still a murderous beast. His blood-red crest of feathers and horrible cry strike stark raving terror into mens' hearts, and he's known to snack on human flesh, but for the most part, he leaves people alone, serving as a guardian of waterways (specifically rivers and swamps) and the creatures within, the fish and amphibians are his charges. Still a monster, but not an ACTIVE monster...

                        That cannot be said of Monai, the third son, who's not just a monster, but really kind of a prick. Like his older brother, he's also a snake, but instead of a parrot's beak, he has two horns that can hypnotize people. He can also fly, typically moving through the treetops before slithering on air. He's the kid associated with the sky and open spaces, fields and suchnot. He's also a thief, raiding villages in secret, then laughing his ass off as the people accuse each other of being the thief.

                        Next is Jasy Jatere, which means "fragment of the moon", and he's the only one of the seven who isn't monstrous in appearance. That also means he's sometimes portrayed much more sympathetically, but not always. He's a small child carrying a staff, and he's in charge of yerba mate (an herb used to make a tea-like beverage grown in South America) and sleep, particularly the midday siesta. See, he likes to wander around the forest invisibly, but he preys on children who don't fall asleep during siesta time. Some legends says he merely plays with them, then sends them back to their beds when siestas are over... but many more tales are much darker. Some say that he feeds the kids herbs that turn them into crazy, feral beasts, some say that he tortures them in cages forever, and others say that he leads them unknowingly to his monstrous brothers (particularly Ao Ao) as a snack-delivery service.

                        Fifth on the list is Kurupi, who, like Jasy Jatere, is a small dwarfish humanoid. Unlike Jasy Jatere, Kurupi is hideous, an ugly, hairy creature with fur on his hands and feet above all else. The most distinctive feature, however, is his penis, which is so long that he has to coil it around his waist like a belt. And, as if that description wasn't enough to clue you in, he's the embodiment of fecundity and, in particular, rape. That's his superpower. He steals women and rapes them, but that's not his only option, because his penis is so dextrous that he can squeeze it through doors and windows or even through the cracks in the walls to rape women. And, hell, he's so virile that even if he DOESN'T have sex with you, no matter, just the slightest touch can knock a girl up. And those hairy feet mean that you can't hear his footsteps, so good luck protecting yourself from him. It's said that any child of a Kurupi becomes exactly like Kurupi himself, hairy, ugly, and fecund. Like Monai, he also likes to play tricks on farmers in between sexual escapades. Though, a farmer could spare themselves his mockery by leaving presents (typically honey and sweet fruit). He's similar to another Guarani mythical figure called Pombero, so much so that it's likely just an alias, and he's phonetically similar to the curupira, a breed of Amazonian forest-creature who are also short beings who trick people but are less about rape and more about protecting the forest, especially game animals...

                        Sixth is Ao Ao, pronounced "ow ow", which is an accurate representation of what you'll say when you meet him. He is the lord of the hills and mountains, where he lives with his many children. Described as an enormous peccary, an Amazonian wild pig, or else as a monstrous sheep, he differs from both creatures in that he's strictly carnivorous, with a taste for human flesh. And he's very proactive about getting it, and he is called the inventor or embodiment of cannibalism. He typically has Jasy Jatere bring him kids to munch on, but he's more than willing to go out and seek it. If he chooses a dude as his prey, that's it. He will chase you down and not stop until you are in his belly. The only way you can possibly avoid him is to climb a palm tree, whereupon he will circle it for a while, before howling in frustration and going off to find some other sap. Just make sure it's a palm tree, because any other species of tree, and he'll just dig out the roots and topple it over.

                        Last, and certainly not least, is the Luison, also called the Lobison or Huicho. While Teju-Jagua may be the most powerful, Luison is probably the most dangerous. He looks like a short, squat dog-man, and is called the ugliest of a series of ugly, ugly siblings. He has long and dirty hair, pail and sickly looking skin, and a constant stench of death and decay. He represents death, eating nothing but dead and decayed flesh, and patrolling graveyards at night. The touch of his cold, clammy hands was an omen that you were about to die. Like the European werewolves, Luison could spread his curse, turning humans into Luisons. Some say that it's passed on through his bite. Some say he has to run between your legs at night. The most enduring myth, however, is that the seventh son of any family will, like the seventh son of Tau and Kerana, be a Luison.

                        In one story, Monai was terrorizing a village and tried to woo a woman named Porasy. Porasy decided to agree, if all of his brothers could attend the ceremony deep in a cave. While the brothers partied and drank, the villagers prepared to seal the entrance and burn them all alive. When Porasy tried to leave, the Seven Children of Tau realized their mistake and kept her in there, hoping to escape with her. Porasy yelled for them to continue, and the villagers burnt them, supposedly killing them. For her sacrifice, Porasy became a constellation. I’d use this story as an interpretation of sealing these Titans in Tartarus.
                        God I freaking love you people,you and Watcher sacerdos and samudra. Every time I'm having a bad day, I know you guys can help me with your knowledge. Real thanks!

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                        • #13
                          Griffin, would you be willing to list a few more of those "one-shot" deities like Sinaa? I could use them for the UDL.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                            Oh sure, I can talk about the figures I have pegged as potential Titans in my research of the Sgā’na Qeda’s. Somewhat similarly to the Ashanti, the Haida have one Supreme God named Sîns sgā’nagwa-i. He has very limited involvement however after a story of his birth, or possibly an incarnation of himself, it's not super clear if he made himself, or he came to be after the world was already created. However, unlike the Ashanti with Nyame, Sîns sgā’nagwa-i is not a policing force for the Supernatural Beings of the culture, so there are some actual antagonistic entities. However, none of them really reach the apocalyptic heights we see in some other regions. There is also no clear dividing line along political groups of the Divine as we see with some Pantheons, such as the Hittite or Irish Pantheons. So, I have flagged these beings as being Titans in my research due to their mono-conceptual natures, and a few instances of major antagonism with mortals.

                            Ha-ilī’las is The Small Pox, a being who rides along the coastline in a large ship similar to those the Europeans arrived with rather than the native canoe. As one might expect, this is probably due to the massive small pox epidemics really kicking off after larger-scale European arrival in the area. Ha-ilī’las is not antagonistic, not really, but he is a living embodiment of a sickness that almost destroyed the Haida nation, so he's not the sort of person you want to be around. He has sent sickness out when displeased as well, such as when he married one of the Moon's daughters, and she was taken back home by one of her brothers.

                            Tia is Death by Violence, but isn't really an antagonistic entity. He just happens to always be around when someone is going to die by violence, except, it's not super-duper clear which comes first. Does Tia show up, and thus doom people to die violently? Or does he only show up when someone is going to die violently? It's not super clear. Either way, you don't really want to be around Tia. He seems to have a thing for being headless though when he physically manifests, a headless bird and a headless human both are forms he shows up in. Further, he only ever repeats his own name 'Tia,' over and over again. I am ashamed that I apparently failed to write down specifically what this means, but I believe it means 'to kill' or 'to murder,' something like that. I need to quickly check that book again before I move and make a note of that.

                            Xe-ū is a good, old-fashioned Titan. He is the Southeast Wind, and was loosing horrific storms on mortals, leading to the intervention by Watghadagaang, the great carpenter Supernatural Being of the Haida. One of the beings I have flagged for 'Divine Parent' stuff. The pair of the clash, and even after calling up all of his relatives, from storm clouds to tidal waves, Xe-ū is defeated. He is not pure evil however, I don't think any of the Haida Supernatural Beings are really. He saves his daughter when another being tries to freeze her to death, so, maybe he just isn't keen on mortals.

                            HI’liñA is the Thunderbird. Honestly, no real mythic tradition for him. The Haida think he lives way further north in the territory of Haida Gwaii, and that other First Nations groups who live closer to him probably understand him more. He is a giant bird that causes thunder by rustling his feathers, causes lightning when he blinks, and hangs out on top of a mountain. I just really want to include them since I found it very interesting that the Haida felt he was somewhat foreign to themselves. I thought it was a good bit of groundwork to have in case I look into writing other First Nations Pantheons in the region.

                            Those are the beings I have flagged for being the most likely Titans. There is not a plethora of them, not like with the Hittites who have armfuls of Titans honestly. But, I think they will each be fun figures to have involved in people's games. I hopefully will find some more interesting figures in my research, there is one other entity I have on a list that I'm not talking about since he is... particularly tricky. I'm going to need to spend a lot of time seeing if I can find any more details to iron out a bit that is confusing me with him. Though, I think it is something I am going to have to make a judgement call over, and leave a note in a sidebar explaining the choice, and how to handle it differently.
                            Watcher,could you point me out where can I learn more about those guys?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                              Watcher,could you point me out where can I learn more about those guys?
                              If you want to read specifically about those figures, check out Contributions to the Ethnology of the Haida. Edited by Franz Boas. Vol. V. The Jesup North Pacific Expedition by John R. Swanton. It is an Ethnographic work where he discusses the figures I drew on to use as Titans in the opening... two chapters I believe.

                              If, on the other hand, you just want to read Haida myths, I suggest the following.​
                              • A Story As Sharp As A Knife: The Classical Haida Mythtellers And Their World. 2nd ed. Vol. 1. Masterworks of the Classical Haida Mythtellers. Translated by Robert Bringhurst.
                              • Nine Visits to the Mythworld. Vol. 2. Masterworks of the Classical Haida Mythtellers. Translated by Robert Bringhurst.
                              • Haida Texts and Myths. Compiled by John R. Swanton. You can find this one online here as it is rather old.

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