Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Current Official Stance on the Monotheist Religion in the World (Possible spoilers)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • glamourweaver I'd suggest a sweet, powdery smell of talcum.

    Talcum is used to ensure a good grip on things, but also for hygienic and cosmetic reasons: it could remind of Azazel (or Gadreel, in some versions), who are depicted in Talmudic lore to have brought the art of both cosmetics and blades to mankind. It is used in an insane number of industrial processes, one of them being the paper industry (Penemue) but also in science, as a lubricant and/or isolant. It is reportedly a potential substitude for cement and, when sterile, a mean to stabilise cancerous pleuresis. On the other hand, it also carries some respiratory risk, and is used by some narco-trafficants as an additive for heroin: that can remind the "bad press" and the ambivalence of the Fallen, who aim to make this Earth a Paradise but who can't helped but being associated with evil in the public's eye.

    Besides, how cool is that for a Fallen Angel that everyone expects to reek of sulphur and brine to instead smell of smooth wool and sweet talcum (and perhaps a pungent, overarching tinge of wine, more or less acre depending on their temper and resentment towards the Fallen state)?
    Last edited by Adrasalieth; 09-02-2018, 04:06 PM.

    Comment


    • I like the idea, but my Mal’akhim Pantheon aren’t Fallen - I deferred to Mysteris’ excellent take to run with my “The Fallen are just a Pantheon that lost their Titanomachy” pitch. I will eventually do a my own take on the Fallen as well in the context of the Mal’akhim, but first I’m working on the Seven Sarim of Heaven and their loyal satan Samael.


      Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

      Comment


      • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
        Anyone have any thoughts on Scent of the Divine smells for my Mal’akhim Pantheon? I’m leaning toward wine and fresh wool right now.

        But I realize that while the smell of red wine has sacramental associations for Jews and Catholics, Islamic and certain Protestant Mantles of the Angels and Chosen Scions would abhor the association...
        Christ is associated with palm trees, plus Cannan is described as a land of milk and honey, Maybe it should be the scent of honey and palm wood? It's hard to think of a universal scent for all the Abrahamic religions since you're not dealing with one specific world culture but I think those scents are vague enough to be applied to the whole Levantine region.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Corax View Post

          Christ is associated with palm trees, plus Cannan is described as a land of milk and honey, Maybe it should be the scent of honey and palm wood? It's hard to think of a universal scent for all the Abrahamic religions since you're not dealing with one specific world culture but I think those scents are vague enough to be applied to the whole Levantine region.
          Milk and honey is a really good idea, thanks!

          I’ll go with the smell of milk and honey, and distant voices raised in song. Whether that song is a Hebrew Psalm, a Latin Mass, Americans Gospel, or Arabic Adhan, etc depends on the Mantles involved.
          Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-03-2018, 03:15 AM.


          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

          Comment


          • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            I’ll go with the smell of milk and honey, and distant voices raised in song. Whether that song is a Hebrew Psalm, a Latin Mass, Americans Gospel, or Arabic Adhan, etc depends on the Mantles involved.
            Yoink! 10char


            Neall Raemonn Price
            Beleaguered Scion Developer

            Comment


            • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
              Islam is a more complicated subject and we do not have remotely enough information for me to comment. Even putting aside the real world events and social context that make addressing the subject difficult, it’s theologically harder to translate into this fictional setting.

              Islam’s most central defining premise that defines a Muslim hinges first and foremost on absolute monotheism (“No God but God”). It can’t adjust to henotheism and still be recognizable as Islam the way Judaism and Christianity theoretically could.
              Perhaps they say in this world, "There is no True God but the True God" and allow that there are "gods" but only one "GOD." There have been Islamic groups in Sumatra and Java that took that opinion.

              Comment


              • Any ideas on Terra Incognita? Kingdom of Prestor John is an obvious possibility, maybe sharing its mythic space with the city states of Jabulsa and Jabulqa, which thanks to avoiding the devastation of the Khanate, have maintained the culture and innovation of the Golden Age.

                Obviously Judaism is harder to wrap in here as it’s earthly promised land is a very explicitly identified non-mythic location, but I was thinking something with the Lost Tribes could work. Perhaps one or two of the lost tribes fled to and intermarried in Sheba which is also in this mythic space with the above kingdoms?


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                Comment


                • Checking through my old kids' book on Arab myths and legends:

                  Medieval Islamic belief apparently thought the earth had seven layers, four of which were given over to the various residents of hell. Of the other three, the first was the home of humans, the second the home of the winds, and the third was inhabited by a devout race which has human hands and faces, cows' legs, goats' ears and bodies covered with wool, whose day and night are the reverse of ours.

                  Mount Qaf, the parent of all other mountains, linked to them through subterranean ranges, home of the jinn and the 'anqa (the phoenix).

                  Iram of the Pillars, the lost city swallowed by the earth, is a possibility.

                  The City of Brass might be an option, but it's in the Thousand and One Nights, so...


                  Elsewhere, Russian Orthodoxy appears to have spawned numerous legends about a kingdom of God on Earth, like the Land of Chud, a sacred kingdom underneath the ground ruled by the 'White Tsar', the city of Kitezh, a sacred city hidden under the lake of Svetloyar, or Belovode, a community located in an archipelago between Russia and Japan.


                  Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

                  Comment


                  • I apologise in advance because I have only read up to page 2 of this thread and I cannot carry on right now. Please excuse me if someone else already said what I am going to say and ignore the message. When I have more time I will read through the whole thread, God willing.

                    To give some useful information on the question of Islam and previous gods:

                    The Quran states rather clearly that some of the gods humanity worshipped were angels, some were jinns conning humans, some were human beings, saints or prophets about whom their followers claimed divinity (that's basically the issue with Christianity) and some were simply nonsense people invented altogether.

                    About jinns specifically, since some (in the first two pages) mentioned them, within the majority view in Sunni Islam they are not regarded as fallen angels, but as a distinct type of creature. Angels are not morally responsible because they lack the capacity to sin or disobey God. They literally do what God wills. Period. Humans and jinns can disobey God and are therefore morally responsible. Satan/Lucifer/Iblis was the best of the jinn before the creation of Adam. He was so good and devout that God allowed him to reside in the heavens with the angels and to take their form. He was among the angels when commanded them to prostrate to Adam. The angels all bowed, because they recognized that that was God's command, whilst Iblis refused to bow because he saw himself as superior to Adam. He was consequently cast out of heaven. Before being expelled he asked God to let him live until the Day of Judgment, which God allowed, and Iblis promised to spend the rest of time tempting the descendants of Adam so that they would not be grateful to God. God said he could tempt them but he had no authority over God's sincere servants. In the next life, Iblis will be punished in Hell with he humans and jinns he misled, so there is no issue of the devil's possible redemption or of him being subtly obedient to God by tempting humans on His account, as there is in some Judaic or Christians traditions. It's not that God does not give him the opportunity to repent: He does. A tradition said Moses once met Iblis and the latter asked him to ask God to forgive him. God said yes on condition that he went to Adam's tomb and prostrated there, as his fall was due to his refusal to prostrate to Adam with the angels. Iblis refused again and remained unforgiven. The Quran announces, as knowledge of the future, that it's already known that Iblis will end up in Hell and will not repent. Some traditions say the jinns all descend from Iblis. Note that the jinn can procreate with humans, although that's forbidden in the sacred laws revealed to both species. It's actually something people discuss to this day. In my life I heard stories of men and women telling religious guides that they were approached by jinns who wanted to have relations with them or marry them. In some cases, they even went through with it, usually with disastrous consequences. The answer I always heard is that is forbidden. There is only one case that is unclear to me, about a Senegalese guide who had three wives, one of them being a jinn. I don't know how he got married to her (him? Some say jinn can change form and, therefore, sex too) because as far as I know it would be forbidden, and I don't know of this guide to have been one prone to public major sins. Be as it may, the story I was told is that the jinn wife killed the other two in jealousy. Obviously, even human wives can kill co-wives in jealousy. Jinns are said to have a temper and super-powers, though.

                    That's the mainstream version. Another version is that the Jinn were a particular tribe of angels able to procreate (which other angels can't do) and Iblis was one of them. That makes it easy to reconcile the Judeo-Christian "fallen angels" story with the Quran's "he was one of the jinn" version.

                    As for issues of Yahveh, Elohim and supposed changes in Judaism over the centuries by assimilating/eliminating deities from middle eastern pantheons: as far as the Quran is concerned, the one God is the one who spoke to Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc. He also spoke to unmentioned prophets sent to other people with different religious precepts, so there's a case in Islamic thought for Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and other religions to be corrupted versions of true revelations. Jews did sometimes mess up their theology (like with the golden calf in Moses' times), but that's seen more as a deviation than as a fundamental religious change. They kept receiving prophets to fix things anyway, until Jesus, peace be upon him.

                    There is a debate in modern Islam about whether seeking the intercession of prophets, saints and, in some cases, angels would be allowed. Much more controversial is dealing with jinns. In any case, the belief is that all power belongs to God and that anyone who does something, good or evil, is simply being allowed to do so by God for His wisdom, and the issue of intercession has several restrictions, and in modern Islam there is a popular understanding - linked mostly to Salafism and Wahhabism - that there is no allowance for seeking intercession from saint, prophets, angels or anything else, and one must just ask God directly, and to do otherwise amount to being a politheist. Traditional Islam, however, which predates both Salafism and Wahhabism, and includes Sufism, but is not just Sufism, as that shouldn't be seen as a confession in itself, has much more space for intercession, especially as far as Prophets and saints are concerned.

                    So, going back to Scion, if I had to master a game and get Abrahamic religions involved somehow, especially by saying they are true, I could make sense of previous gods as jinns, but not every god of the past would have been real, or I would have to modify the Quranic view in-game to let all myths be real. Off-game, I concede, as a practicing Muslim and academic specialised in Islamic studies, that there is ground, even in some Islamic literature, to say that some ancient gods were in fact angels, but they never requested worship - which would have been forbidden. Some author here and there says so. Either human beings worshipped them wrongly of their own volition and misunderstanding, or what they were doing was not actual worship, but practices of intercession established in the religious law they received and abrogated later on by the later prophets, especially if they became corrupted and misunderstood over time. In-game, it would be contradictory - if I say in game that Islam is also true - to say that ancient gods were angels and that they accepted worship, which I understand to be implicit, if not explicit in Scion, especially for those pantheons rewarding Piety as a Virtue. So jinns is the least contradicting options to preserve both matters.
                    With that said, I don't know if devout Muslim Scions would make any sense. There is nothing they could descend from that they would consider a god in any way (angels don't procreate and jinns should not procreate and, more importantly, they should not be worshipped nor turned to, the only exception being maybe the case of saints who receive the same miracles of Solomon and have the jinns subjugated to them by God). Being descendants from prophets or saints wouldn't work, simply because their descendants exist in the real world and are plenty (I know a few and their ancestry is, in several case, though clearly not all, well documented and traceable), so I don't think it works for the game.

                    An option could be to have Scions as descendants of jinns who were once worshipped by human, but who have now repented from both having sexual relationship with humans and demanding their worship. The jinns themselves have become devout Muslims and are trying to work awkwardly with their shiqq (the technical name for the child of a human and a jinn) to serve Allah by fighting some bigger and older jinns that correspond to the Titans. A nice plot point would be the fact that shiqq are usually sin as more strongly inclined to evil than normal humans, though they are not damned.

                    Alternatively, Muslims could simply have various reasons and means to oppose Titans, gods and possibly Scions altogether, while pursuing their own way to save the world. The breakout of the Titans from Tartarus could be some event before the End of Times, like the break out of the Anti-Christ (Dajjal) in Muslim eschatology.

                    Comment


                    • Oh, P.S.: I think it's relatively clear by what I wrote, but the definition of god or deity in Islam is strictly someone worthy of worship, and also omnipotent, omniscient, etc
                      The question is not whether there are other gods in the sense of powerful beings who play some role in creation (that would be angels). The question is whether those beings deserve worship and are able to do anything at all without God's will, power and knowledge, and the point is that theologically they're not. They're respected and loved as servants of God, but that's about it...They're not gods and there are no gods beside the one, because anything that human beings have called gods are basically something else who's abusing the title, which is not tied to power (as we use it in English, were anything awfully powerful is called a god), but to the right to worship and absoluteness of power, knowledge, etc.

                      Comment



                      • All considered I would personally simply exclude Abrahamic faiths from my Scion game. I might have the monotheistic cult of the Sun of Akhenaton as having survived the ages and become the main world religion in our times, and treat them basically like your average antagonist besides the Titans and their servants.

                        Abrahamic faiths are complex to accommodate with the Scion premise, leading either to a hardly convincing theory of the world and religion in-game or to discomfort for some players due to bending their faiths too much. One nice thing about the game is the freedom to explore an alternative world in which those ancient myths are true and don't need that much reconciling with our modern beliefs, scientific or religious.
                        Also, an argument against polytheism in the Quran is that, if creation was entrusted to two Gods, it would be a mess. Theologians further say that they would either have to agree and be in constant harmony (which would limit their will to the point of them not qualifying as Gods anymore) or their disagreement about what to do with creation would lead to a power contest, which would entail that their powers have limits, so they're not really Gods and must have someone above them for creation to exist. If we say that the gods are angels or beings coming from the same One, unless that One also enforces harmony (even hidden) between them, creation would be torn apart in chaos. And if He does enforce that, they are just angels and the old myths are false because they ascribe to them deeds and conflicts that would not make sense, except symbolically. And if the old myths are false, it's not Scion. And if beings of powers like Titans and gods are in perfect harmony so that creation can function at a basic level of coherence, that's not Scion either. In the game, for plot reasons, we need supreme beings who are not fully supreme but have Purviews that need them to work together and when they don't and go crazy creation is threatened, but not so much that other powerful beings can't try to save the day.

                        That's me though, and how I think I would enjoy the game. It's a game after all. We can all make our own narratives for our games and as long as players get along with it, it should work.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hermeticus View Post
                          All considered I would personally simply exclude Abrahamic faiths from my Scion game. I might have the monotheistic cult of the Sun of Akhenaton as having survived the ages and become the main world religion in our times, and treat them basically like your average antagonist besides the Titans and their servants.

                          Abrahamic faiths are complex to accommodate with the Scion premise, leading either to a hardly convincing theory of the world and religion in-game or to discomfort for some players due to bending their faiths too much. One nice thing about the game is the freedom to explore an alternative world in which those ancient myths are true and don't need that much reconciling with our modern beliefs, scientific or religious.
                          Also, an argument against polytheism in the Quran is that, if creation was entrusted to two Gods, it would be a mess. Theologians further say that they would either have to agree and be in constant harmony (which would limit their will to the point of them not qualifying as Gods anymore) or their disagreement about what to do with creation would lead to a power contest, which would entail that their powers have limits, so they're not really Gods and must have someone above them for creation to exist. If we say that the gods are angels or beings coming from the same One, unless that One also enforces harmony (even hidden) between them, creation would be torn apart in chaos. And if He does enforce that, they are just angels and the old myths are false because they ascribe to them deeds and conflicts that would not make sense, except symbolically. And if the old myths are false, it's not Scion. And if beings of powers like Titans and gods are in perfect harmony so that creation can function at a basic level of coherence, that's not Scion either. In the game, for plot reasons, we need supreme beings who are not fully supreme but have Purviews that need them to work together and when they don't and go crazy creation is threatened, but not so much that other powerful beings can't try to save the day.

                          That's me though, and how I think I would enjoy the game. It's a game after all. We can all make our own narratives for our games and as long as players get along with it, it should work.
                          Personally I don’t think it be that complicated. I mean the stance your going that if the Abrahimic religions are true thus that make others false, thus it’s not all myths are true. But thinking that way kinda makes it seem that the other mythologies don’t contradict each other on that front either, which is wrong. This is a game where the earth is Gaia and the Sky Ouranos, where the world was fashioned out of the Giant Ymir or the Mother of Monsters Tiamat, or the world was created by Inzangi pulling out the land with his spear or where it was created by the Orisha dripping sand into the primordial sea. All of that is true in Scion, but I mean it’s plain to see that they contradict each other, a lot. The nature of what is a God or not is the same, we already have a Pantheon where the members are not really Gods and consider everyone else to be the same as them, the Manitou. So for an Abrahamic Pantheon, honing down on Islam, it would be fine if they would consider all the other pantheons to be either Jinn or Angels, likewise the other pantheons would probably consider both God and his Angels to be gods in all, no matter if they don’t consider themselves that way. Your thinking that if the Abrahamic faiths were added to the game then they would have to sit on a special pedestal to have their myths be right, it doesn’t have to be so. By accepting the premise that all myths are true means that everything the Abrahamic faiths consider to be true is true, but also everything the Norse consider to be true is also true, and the Greeks, and the Japanese, and the Irish etc. I just want to remind that the gods in game aren’t really the gods the people that we worshiped whether now or long ago, Neall made it clear that they are magical constructs in Fate, all of them. Every pantheon and every god, it doesn’t have to be different to the monotheistic faiths. To say the Abrahamic God isn’t like the others would mean a favoring between one religion against all the others, which isn’t what Scion is about. That may be contradicting to the specifics of the religions but it’s not like the premise of the setting isn’t contradicting any others too, there’s nothing different about the other pantheons that saying there all just magical constructs isn’t effecting their own dogma and beliefs tho it does vary between one group to the other. But it is because of that fact that makes it possible that the idea All Myths Are True actually does work no matter who it is, I don’t see why that same logic can’t apply to the Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. It’s all contradictory but because of that it means that no one myth is more true then another. That’s my thoughts on it anyhow.
                          Last edited by Iceblade44; 09-30-2018, 08:10 PM.


                          .

                          Comment


                          • I will also just quickly weigh in on that notion of what makes a Deity a Deity since that came up.

                            Godhood in Scion is very.... unique to each Pantheon. For instance, while the Abrahamic Faiths might see divinity in one way, the Theoi see it in a different way, and the Teotl in a third. Each Pantheon is essentially operating under a unique definition of Godhood if All Myths Are True, which is some awesome design space for God.

                            While Abrahamic Faiths have a notion of Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Solitary, the ancient Greeks would disagree. Their Gods are Undying, Abstract Notions that wear people suits, and their power is vested in their line of decent. The Irish have figures who are very mortal, can die to human hands, and are supernaturally skilled in specific areas rather than representing the natural world. The main similarity is that we call them 'Gods' in English, but they're as dissimilar, if not more so, than different professions we call Kings in English. An Irish Rí Túatha, the Inca of the Inca Empire, a Roman Rex, or an Indian Raj are all fundamentally different, but we call them all kings.

                            What Godhood is varies, and each of these notions is true. To the Theoi, the Túatha Dé Danann are not Gods, not at all. But, to the Túatha Dé Danann, the Theoi are just abstractions pretending to be people. All of these can be true while at the same time being contradictory, and that's totally fine within the game system. The Abrahamic Faiths can have their entire doctrine exist, every inch, ever heresy, every self-contradiction. Just as it can exist while being internally contradictory, it can exist while being externally contradictory. They can co-exist with other Pantheons, because Scion is a game of clashing realities, where everything is true, even if it makes very little sense.


                            Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                            The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire.
                            The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples.

                            Comment


                            • It does seem Scion 2E tries to balance the relative immortality of Gods in different pantheons via the idea that MANTLES are immortal. So the Tuatha die and then Incarnate again all the time. Dionysus has some evidence of doing this, at least in the view of some Mystery Cults, and the Hero preview texts hints at the possibility that there's been two different Aphrodites, Zeus and Dione's daughter having assumed the Mantle of the Ouranic Aphrodite.

                              That said, it would be interesting if it turned out "Olympian level Immortality" was a God-level Metamorphosis boon, hence why other Pantheons don't seem to display it the same way (same way I hope "make an Incarnate Scion of myself without dying or lessening myself" is a God-level Yoga boon).
                              Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-01-2018, 05:50 AM.


                              Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hermeticus View Post
                                , I don't know if devout Muslim Scions would make any sense. There is nothing they could descend from that they would consider a god in any way (angels don't procreate and jinns should not procreate and, more importantly, they should not be worshipped nor turned to, the only exception being maybe the case of saints who receive the same miracles of Solomon and have the jinns subjugated to them by God). Being descendants from prophets or saints wouldn't work, simply because their descendants exist in the real world and are plenty (I know a few and their ancestry is, in several case, though clearly not all, well documented and traceable), so I don't think it works for the game.

                                An option could be to have Scions as descendants of jinns who were once worshipped by human, but who have now repented from both having sexual relationship with humans and demanding their worship. The jinns themselves have become devout Muslims and are trying to work awkwardly with their shiqq (the technical name for the child of a human and a jinn) to serve Allah by fighting some bigger and older jinns that correspond to the Titans. A nice plot point would be the fact that shiqq are usually sin as more strongly inclined to evil than normal humans, though they are not damned.
                                Ah responding to this since it seems you unaware that this changed. So I just want to clear this up. In 2nd Edition you no longer have to be a literally child of a God to be a Scion. There are now 4 ways. The first is the classical God x Mortal deal, but it's also to be noted that it's the same if it was God x God as well. That would still give you a mortal scion from the looks of it, though I'm sure there are some differences, probably some unique merits or supernatural path. The 2nd is to be Created, as in a God literally creating a Scion. Think Enkidu or Pandora, an artificial human. Really you could probably interpret Adam and Eve being this type of Scion. Also Lilith since I can see that happening. The Third is to be Chosen, this is were you get the legendary heroes and kings who weren't really related to the Divine but was under their patronage and gained power. Of course not everyone seems to be able to be Chosen, ancient and special bloodlines are most likely, like royalty and nobility of some types but I think there can be exceptions. For examples of this consider David and Solomon, they would be Scions of this type. The last are the Incarnate, these are the Scions who would be the avatars of gods who were split off from their main bodies because something happened thus become human. Incarnates also include legendary heroes and dead gods who ressurect themselves and now try to do their legends right or to reclaim their power as gods. I don't really see much Incarnated in the Abrahamic faiths but if you follow the Christianity side this would technically be what Jesus was.

                                And as for the jinn. Most likely they would be a Legendary Creatures. Think of Centuars and Kitsune. These beings can be made into Scions by God's intervention thus you can find them at Demigod tier and even God tier for a rare few. Well it's either Legendary Creatures or Titanspawn if you following the line of thought of them being descended from Iblis. In any case if their good jinn they are probably Legendary Creature so yeah you could totally take one as an option for a Scion with their jinn nature representing a Supernatural Path they would have.
                                Last edited by Iceblade44; 09-30-2018, 11:33 PM.


                                .

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X