Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Current Official Stance on the Monotheist Religion in the World (Possible spoilers)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post

    Personally I don’t think it be that complicated. I mean the stance your going that if the Abrahimic religions are true thus that make others false, thus it’s not all myths are true. But thinking that way kinda makes it seem that the other mythologies don’t contradict each other on that front either, which is wrong. This is a game where the earth is Gaia and the Sky Ouranos, where the world was fashioned out of the Giant Ymir or the Mother of Monsters Tiamat, or the world was created by Inzangi pulling out the land with his spear or where it was created by the Orisha dripping sand into the primordial sea. All of that is true in Scion, but I mean it’s plain to see that they contradict each other, a lot. The nature of what is a God or not is the same, we already have a Pantheon where the members are not really Gods and consider everyone else to be the same as them, the Manitou. So for an Abrahamic Pantheon, honing down on Islam, it would be fine if they would consider all the other pantheons to be either Jinn or Angels, likewise the other pantheons would probably consider both God and his Angels to be gods in all, no matter if they don’t consider themselves that way. Your thinking that if the Abrahamic faiths were added to the game then they would have to sit on a special pedestal to have their myths be right, it doesn’t have to be so. By accepting the premise that all myths are true means that everything the Abrahamic faiths consider to be true is true, but also everything the Norse consider to be true is also true, and the Greeks, and the Japanese, and the Irish etc. I just want to remind that the gods in game aren’t really the gods the people that we worshiped whether now or long ago, Neall made it clear that they are magical constructs in Fate, all of them. Every pantheon and every god, it doesn’t have to be different to the monotheistic faiths. To say the Abrahamic God isn’t like the others would mean a favoring between one religion against all the others, which isn’t what Scion is about. That may be contradicting to the specifics of the religions but it’s not like the premise of the setting isn’t contradicting any others too, there’s nothing different about the other pantheons that saying there all just magical constructs isn’t effecting their own dogma and beliefs tho it does vary between one group to the other. But it is because of that fact that makes it possible that the idea All Myths Are True actually does work no matter who it is, I don’t see why that same logic can’t apply to the Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. It’s all contradictory but because of that it means that no one myth is more true then another. That’s my thoughts on it anyhow.
    I see your points, and I think I basically have a different mindset in that I am used to think of ancient pantheons+Hinduism as compatible in the real world, a bit like the Romans and the Greek at some point saw Egyptian deities as a culturally different version of roughly their same gods, or ancient people could see gods of enemy people as real but weaker. The first view (various pantheons but same entities, more or less) works well with the Abrahamic reconstruction of "they were angels". The second view (gods of different degrees of power protecting different people) works with the "they were jinns or hoaxes" Abrahamic reconstruction.
    Agreed, neither reconstruction works perfectly well with Scion as it is, and ultimately one has to accept a degree of compromise and contradiction.

    In your other post you pointed out the different understanding and implications of godhood across Scion pantheons, and that makes sense for the game. I admit I'm new to the game and are still getting the hang of the setting.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post

      Ah responding to this since it seems you unaware that this changed. So I just want to clear this up. In 2nd Edition you no longer have to be a literally child of a God to be a Scion. There are now 4 ways. The first is the classical God x Mortal deal, but it's also to be noted that it's the same if it was God x God as well. That would still give you a mortal scion from the looks of it, though I'm sure there are some differences, probably some unique merits or supernatural path. The 2nd is to be Created, as in a God literally creating a Scion. Think Enkidu or Pandora, an artificial human. Really you could probably interpret Adam and Eve being this type of Scion. Also Lilith since I can see that happening. The Third is to be Chosen, this is were you get the legendary heroes and kings who weren't really related to the Divine but was under their patronage and gained power. Of course not everyone seems to be able to be Chosen, ancient and special bloodlines are most likely, like royalty and nobility of some types but I think there can be exceptions. For examples of this consider David and Solomon, they would be Scions of this type. The last are the Incarnate, these are the Scions who would be the avatars of gods who were split off from their main bodies because something happened thus become human. Incarnates also include legendary heroes and dead gods who ressurect themselves and now try to do their legends right or to reclaim their power as gods. I don't really see much Incarnated in the Abrahamic faiths but if you follow the Christianity side this would technically be what Jesus was.

      And as for the jinn. Most likely they would be a Legendary Creatures. Think of Centuars and Kitsune. These beings can be made into Scions by God's intervention thus you can find them at Demigod tier and even God tier for a rare few. Well it's either Legendary Creatures or Titanspawn if you following the line of thought of them being descended from Iblis. In any case if their good jinn they are probably Legendary Creature so yeah you could totally take one as an option for a Scion with their jinn nature representing a Supernatural Path they would have.
      Ok, that actually gives a lot more options, including prophets and saints (as chosen).

      In a Muslim pantheon, Jesus would actually be created, as the Quran states that Jesus and Adam are the same in God's sight, except that Adam was created from scratch, Eve from Adam and Jesus from Mary (with the intervention of the Holy Spirit which, for Muslims, is one name of the archangel Gabriel, not a part of the Trinity, and is not divine in any way). Jesus is born miraculously from Mary with her being a virgin, but that's just a miracle like the creation of Eve or bringing the dead back to life, it's not a sign that God is more his father than anyone else's.
      Last edited by Hermeticus; 10-01-2018, 02:21 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hermeticus View Post

        Ok, that actually gives a lot more options, including prophets and saints (as chosen).
        Yep, that’s what i’m doing in my Mal’achim/Malaa’ikah “Pantheon”. Their Scions are Chosen shoftim, awilya, etc. They use the term “nephilim” for born Scions, and see them as blasphemies.


        Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

        Comment


        • I would think that the Created and Chosen options would allow for Abrahamic Scions who were either Created by God or Born Scions of other Gods who converted.

          As an example, if you have a Scion of Marduk who was born in Iraq and raised as a devout Muslim by his mortal mother? If an angel or other holy figure of Judaism, Christianity, and/or Islam encounters him before Marduk has a chance to Visit him, he could undergo something similar to the Adoption concept from 1E and be claimed as a servant of God/Yahwheh/Allah/Whatever.


          "We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
          Captain Malcolm Reynolds

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hermeticus View Post
            That's the mainstream version. Another version is that the Jinn were a particular tribe of angels able to procreate (which other angels can't do) and Iblis was one of them. That makes it easy to reconcile the Judeo-Christian "fallen angels" story with the Quran's "he was one of the jinn" version.
            First up: Christian, not Judeo-Christian. Jewish angels don't "fall" and become demons. An angel can go bad, but an angel is an angel is an angel - the Watchers remained angels even if you accept Enochian texts in the Jewish tradition. Jewish demons are not and were never angels, but instead something completely different and closer to Islamic jinn.

            With that said, I don't know if devout Muslim Scions would make any sense. There is nothing they could descend from that they would consider a god in any way (angels don't procreate and jinns should not procreate and, more importantly, they should not be worshipped nor turned to, the only exception being maybe the case of saints who receive the same miracles of Solomon and have the jinns subjugated to them by God). Being descendants from prophets or saints wouldn't work, simply because their descendants exist in the real world and are plenty (I know a few and their ancestry is, in several case, though clearly not all, well documented and traceable), so I don't think it works for the game.
            You could probably do it with the few pantheons that distinguish themselves from being Actual For Real Gods - the Orishas and the Tanrilar are the two that spring to mind. Both claim that they are qualitatively different from For Real God, with both claiming to be spiritual servants of For Real God, rather than strictly deities. While they may accept veneration and prayers of intercession or thanks, they would usually describe it very differently than worship of For Real God (however they name him). Both, in the real world, have coexisted with Islam, albeit probably rather heterodox takes on Islam.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post

              First up: Christian, not Judeo-Christian. Jewish angels don't "fall" and become demons. An angel can go bad, but an angel is an angel is an angel - the Watchers remained angels even if you accept Enochian texts in the Jewish tradition. Jewish demons are not and were never angels, but instead something completely different and closer to Islamic jinn.
              Yeah, more than a few scholars have treated “shedim” and “jinn” as synonyms.

              The issue of Judaic demons and angels is made even more complicated by some of the ambiguous cases with figures treated as shedim or evil angels in different sources. Some are clear like Samael (angel) or Asmodeus (sheyd), but Azazel can either way.

              Strangely it’s Azazel who is most often conflated with Iblis, but Asmodeus is the figure I’m finding the most similarities to in Judaic lore. There’s more than a few cases like this, where the traditional nomenclature conflation doesn’t line up with the greatest similarities. For example, in Islam, the Angel Israfil is literally “the fiery one” and apocalyptic trumpeter, which would make him most similar to Jewish and Christian views of Gabriel, but the traditional equivalency is Raphael (Jibril is obviously Gabriel).


              Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post
                You could probably do it with the few pantheons that distinguish themselves from being Actual For Real Gods - the Orishas and the Tanrilar are the two that spring to mind. Both claim that they are qualitatively different from For Real God, with both claiming to be spiritual servants of For Real God, rather than strictly deities. While they may accept veneration and prayers of intercession or thanks, they would usually describe it very differently than worship of For Real God (however they name him). Both, in the real world, have coexisted with Islam, albeit probably rather heterodox takes on Islam.
                Yes. This is where 2e’s concept of Primordials comes in, especially when paired with Mantles: these Pantheons have a Primordial in their ranks who can be thought of as their conception of “For Real God”; and with Mantles, it’s entirely possible that all of these Pantheon-specific Primordials are in fact different Mantles of a single being.

                And yeah; I take it as a given that if using Abrahamic faiths in a Scion game, Born Abrahamic Scions will be rare — and when they do happen, the vast majority will be in the mold of the Nephilim.


                Comment


                • Muslims on Isa: Created Prophet via Jibril, who like the Prophets Enoch (Metatron) and Elijah (Sandolphon) achieved ascension as a being equal to the greatest angels (ala normal Scion apotheosis)

                  Nicean Christians on Jesus Christ: Incarnate of Jehovah; when others point out “Primordials can’t Incarnate”, they rebut “clearly the One True Prime Mover can! That’s what makes it so miraculous.”

                  Jews on Joshua ben Joseph: Born nephil of some pagan sheyd, who raised by devoutly Jewish parents recontextualized his nature in Judaism as best he could, but obviously not the messiah promised by Isaiah as he did not cast out the Romans or restore the Temple, and certainly no more a “true god” than any other sheyd who achieves ascension beyond his mortal state.
                  Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-01-2018, 05:22 PM.


                  Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                  Comment


                  • One thing I've learned from the Scion Discord is that, "Born Scion's don't make any sense for this belief system" is not a particularly rare quality in a belief system. Thankfully, we have Chosen and Created Scion's to work with well, in the end here. If one was going to have Abrahamic Scion's-- you'd probably default to either Chosen or Created,-- but in either case I get the impression that they'd be fairly rare...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post

                      First up: Christian, not Judeo-Christian. Jewish angels don't "fall" and become demons. An angel can go bad, but an angel is an angel is an angel - the Watchers remained angels even if you accept Enochian texts in the Jewish tradition. Jewish demons are not and were never angels, but instead something completely different and closer to Islamic jinn.



                      You could probably do it with the few pantheons that distinguish themselves from being Actual For Real Gods - the Orishas and the Tanrilar are the two that spring to mind. Both claim that they are qualitatively different from For Real God, with both claiming to be spiritual servants of For Real God, rather than strictly deities. While they may accept veneration and prayers of intercession or thanks, they would usually describe it very differently than worship of For Real God (however they name him). Both, in the real world, have coexisted with Islam, albeit probably rather heterodox takes on Islam.
                      Thank you for that clarification! I'm awfully ignorant about Judaism and this piece of information is actually relevant as I was thinking about the issue of angels and their capacity to disobey God just ten minutes ago!

                      I know little about Orishas andTanrilar and how Muslims dealt with them. Might report back if I learn more from my African teachers and Turkish friends, God willing.

                      Just to put it out there: I know through Islamic history some Muslim philosophers (in the sense that they studied Ellenistic philosophy, including its religious or occult practices) who have left written prayers to the "luminaries" governing the celestial bodies, like angels or pure souls whose body is one of the planets. In these prayers, they address the planets with their Arab names but the qualities ascribed to them are the same as those of ancient Greece: Venus is beauty and harmony, Mars is strength and war, and so on.

                      These practice was very likely hidden, elite and heterodox, but there's still much research to do on this. It does not represent or agrees with what most Muslims would be comfortable with, though, I think.

                      Comment


                      • Glamourweaver, which mythical figures are you going to have as the primary pantheon for the Malakh'im?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                          Glamourweaver, which mythical figures are you going to have as the primary pantheon for the Malakh'im?
                          I have 7 Sarim of Heaven (well 6 + a subordinate of the one Sar banned from the World) including the big names Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. And one other angel on more questionable terms with the others. Ishim (Eidolons including Christian Saints) are included as Guides, as are some other example angels of lower rank.

                          Jesus gets a sidebar, I haven’t decided if he makes Chosen directly or not.

                          The Fallen get a separate chapter so people can decide to use them too or not. The Mal’akhim chapter doesn’t assume they’re an active schismed Pantheon or not, as the pagan Shedim (including gods and titans) are plenty viable adversaries to those who keep covenant with G-d for protection/salvation/etc. So the semi-apocryphal Christian concept of "demons of hell" as enemies of Heaven aren't an assumed part of the writeup, but is there to use if one wants.
                          Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-04-2018, 01:22 AM.


                          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                          Comment


                          • I should mention the Covenant Purview pretty much shot down the PSP I was working on, so I'm open to other suggestions.


                            Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                            Comment


                            • Maybe a Purview focused on the creation and control of prophets? Something focused around the spreading the message of God? If talking about something that all Abrahamic faiths have in common that seems to be a central thing. It would be similar to the Teotl's sacrifice purview, at Hero level you are the prophet and have boons gaining wisdom by signs of God and his angels, then at God level you would be the one to deliver those messages. That's one idea I think fits very well.


                              .

                              Comment


                              • My own take on the group, the Shekhinah Heavenly Host uses a larger and somewhat eclectic group based on the various angels I was actually able to find details on between the Abrahamic faiths, Enoch and selected other apocrypha and deuterocanon. My list is: Azrael (Angel of Death and Renewal, largely folk Judaism and Islam), Barachiel (Archangel of Blessings and Family, mostly Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic), Cameal (Archangel of Strength, mostly Judaic and some Christian lore), Gabriel (Messenger and Left Hand of God), Samael ha-Satan (Accusing Angel, Angel of Disaster, Tempter of the Righteous, mostly Judaic, possibly formerly held the Mantle of Lucifer before that somehow became a Titan), Haniel (Archangel of Joy, mostly Judaic), Jegudiel (Angel of Praise and Craft, mostly Orthodox), Jophiel (Angel of Wisdom and Art, Judaic and some Christian, I went with him being cognate with Tzaphkiel/Zuriel/Dina because there's so little on those guys), Metatron (the Recording Angel, the Lesser Name, Enochian), Michael (Right Hand of God, Commander of the Host), Raguel (Angel of Justice and Speech, Judaic), Ramiel (Archangel of Hope, I made him cognate with Jerahmeel and hinted that he might be the same Ramiel as from Enoch and thus somewhat tempted by the flesh), Raphael (Archangel of Healing), Raziel (Archangel of the Mysteries, mostly Judaic), Sandalphon (the Heavenly Chariot, Angel of the Kingdom, Judaic), Selaphiel (Archangel of Prayer, Judaic and some Catholic and Orthodox), Uriel (Archangel of Light and Repentance, I made him cognate with Phanuel), Zadkiel (Archangel of Freedom, Judaic).

                                My primary take on them is Judaic, and I was looking at the Kabbalah as an idea for their purview. My take on them and the Abrahamic faiths is 'the Shekhinah really like rules, and they gave out a lot of them to various different human groups with the idea that any human ruleset would be necessarily imperfect, due to imperfect humans. They were really shocked when everyone started fighting over the differences in the rules or coming up with their own takes on it but have never been able to figure out a good way to prevent it, because every time they've tried to fix it it seems to get worse.' Their primary weakness being their own rigidity, after all. The angels themselves are largely unified, albeit with some internal fights (the more aggressive purity-focused angels don't like Samael much, Metatron and Raziel tend to bother the revelatory angels because they both are inherently about divine mysteries that cannot or should not be directly revealed, and Zadkiel is a dove in a very, very hawkish pantheon) but the same traits that make them rigid and bad at things that are completely new also make them a very strongly united 'pantheon.'
                                Last edited by MorsRattus; 10-04-2018, 01:17 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X