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Current Official Stance on the Monotheist Religion in the World (Possible spoilers)

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  • Manbat
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    I really don't think Allah is more different from the One God of Abraham than the Holy Trinity is. If I was going to pick which Abrahamic religion's predominant theology is the odd one out of the three, it'd have to be the one where God has a flesh and blood Son who is also God - but there's only One God because they're three in one at the same time. That concept would nonsensical applied to the predominant Jewish perspective of God (which you may note in the New Testament is why Paul gives up on the Jews and focuses on converting pagans, because a dying and resurrecting flesh and blood deity was a concept they could wrap their heads around).
    I agree, definitely, and thought the same, at first, in the following sense:

    The One God of Abraham and Allah are Mantles of each other, but they also are Mantle of a third deity: the Father, which is a Triple Deity, with Christ and the Holy Spirit (sometimes, not everybody agrees). While the latter (the Holy Spirit) would not be an actual God, with his own will (mostly), but being more of an Incarnation of the Will of the One God/The Father/Allah Deity (which could, by itself, be a triple deity, but with a inside triple deity inside. Most of the time).

    I thought it was very weird, specially considering that this Odd Pantheon of One God (or not) has also a Primordial, that is this same one deity, which not only dont work very well with any of the books rules so far, but also has a potential to be very offensive.

    So I opted out in choosing to use the different Religions as general doctrines as Patronages. Could also be seem as patronage form the specific Prophet/Messiah sent by God. Like, having Muhammad as a potential Patron, with a few Purviews to choose, Christ as other potential Patron, with his different Purviews, and maybe Moses as a different Patron (I dont know enough of Jewish tradition to know who to put here. Maybe David would be better, I honestly dont know).

    So I thought this could be even more potentially offensive, as I was now naming different Prophets/Messiahs, so I decided to just organize all deities in this one Multi-Mantle Triple Primordial, and putting the Religion as a "general concept" of what the Patronage entails, with somewhat different Purviews for each one.

    I still like my second idea with the Prophets/Messiahs the best, but I know many people can interpret it badly and I was thinking in actually writing a fan-made pantheon at time.

    Also, I was thinking, and in the World, probably most of believers from non-Abrahamic religions see Jezus in the same way as we see Heracles or Kali. Like a Scion/Incarnation of some sort that became a God/Mantle.

    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    That's a really interesting idea on the Virtues!
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Manbat; 07-31-2018, 10:11 PM.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by ~NKF~ View Post
    Well, while I can agree with some points, I do want to point out that not only are El and Yahweh distinct deities who were conflated overtime,
    Well aware. I was thinking that YHWH's ascension to be conflated with El was the point the "Creation Myth" was performed that created the separate mythic history and the monotheistic cosmology and pantheon that exists alongside the all the others was born. In this hypothetical as far the Malakim are concerned, the Canaanite gods ARE their disloyal fallen brethren.

    Allat is Astarte, then Astarte is Ishtar as well, and we get deep into the web of comparative mythology that leaves half the love and war goddesses in the Middle East combined into a single goddess. And honestly, if we're not doing that for the Indo-European gods, we shouldn't do that with the Semitic gods in my opinion.
    No, I said Allat is Asherah, not Astarte. Ugaritic sources clearly distinguish between Asherah and Astarte (the latter of whom is Ishtar/Inanna hanging out in another pantheon, the former of whom is the Elohim's Queen of Heaven, also called "Elat").

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Manbat View Post
    Jewish/Christian God and Allah two Mantles of the same Primordial Deity
    I really don't think Allah is more different from the One God of Abraham than the Holy Trinity is. If I was going to pick which Abrahamic religion's predominant theology is the odd one out of the three, it'd have to be the one where God has a flesh and blood Son who is also God - but there's only One God because they're three in one at the same time. That concept would be nonsensical applied to the predominant Jewish perspective of God (which you may note in the New Testament is why Paul gives up on the Jews and focuses on converting pagans, because a dying and resurrecting flesh and blood deity was a concept they could wrap their heads around).

    That's a really interesting idea on the Virtues!
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-12-2019, 02:26 PM.

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  • Manbat
    replied
    A while ago I was wasting a few of my brain cells on this issue also, and tried to think in a working "Monotheistic Pantheon", if that makes any sense. Besides thinking about making Jewish/Christian God and Allah two Mantles of the same Primordial Deity, making Classic Catholic Saints Guides in game, and thinking that all modern Scions of this Pantheon are of the Chosen kind, I made no more progress than you guys have so eloquently presented.

    But, if I can add some of my own thinking about the Virtues of this Pantheon, I think the better dichotomy would be Fervorousity vs. Syncretism: on one side, those who are absolute on their faith and devotion, but can become an extremist if unable to work with others that think, and believe, differently; and in the other side those who accept and embrace many, if not all, different ideas and beliefs, but in the risk of losing their identity and faith. Similar to the Orisha Virtues when you think of it.

    Also, the Pantheon Purview would be something related to the strong and undubious faith that followers of those religions have, made famous for their Martyrs and for the believers enduring some of the most terrible sufferings with an unquivering resolution.

    Also Also, when thinking about how to play with a Scion of this Pantheon, I got myself thinking about which Purviews we would be able to choose, and I got think it would be better to separate those by religion, without actually attributing a Patron God to those Scions.

    Also Also Also, I absolutely agree with glamourweaver and Wannabe Demon Lord that the Archdemons would be an excellent and very interesting Pantheon, the first Antagonistic Pantheon, in the sense that it is a Pantheon that his purpose and unity comes from a confrontation against their own Primordial, in a eternal struggle between forces of good and evil. (Who is good and who is evil varies depending who you ask). Also, angels work much better as Titans, or even Titanspawn

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  • vonpenguin
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    You know what I just realized would be a terrifying possibility that would make a disturbing amount of sense in Scion's cosmology?

    Angels shun human worship, emanate from a distant formless creator, and are loyal to their ordained function above all else.

    Demons are angels who rebelled in ancient times over free will, thus changing their nature, and are VERY interested in human worship.

    What if the Archdemons of Hell are a pantheon of Gods who lost their Titanomachy? And the Archangels of that level of might are Titans?
    That is scary brilliant.

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  • Wannabe Demon Lord
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    You know what I just realized would be a terrifying possibility that would make a disturbing amount of sense in Scion's cosmology?

    Angels shun human worship, emanate from a distant formless creator, and are loyal to their ordained function above all else.

    Demons are angels who rebelled in ancient times over free will, thus changing their nature, and are VERY interested in human worship.

    What if the Archdemons of Hell are a pantheon of Gods who lost their Titanomachy? And the Archangels of that level of might are Titans?
    I would love to have the Archdemons as a pantheon, and the Archangels as Titans. Honestly, the Archdemons would be easier to work as divine parents/patrons than the Archangels. That's not to say that the Archangels would be evil, per se, but in many ways, they are very titanic while the Archdemons behave in a far more human manner.

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  • ~NKF~
    replied
    Well, while I can agree with some points, I do want to point out that not only are El and Yahweh distinct deities who were conflated overtime, but they actually have very different personalities. As an example, when Anat threatens El, he doesn't really do what she wants, but he also doesn't punish her in any way. During one of the (several) times Anat threatens him, he basically says, "Do whatever you want and I won't stand in your way." That's not the Judaeo-Christian Yahweh who throws Lucifer from heaven for pride or casts out angels for having affairs with mortals.

    The Elohim also differ from the Alihah in a number of ways and have several deities unique to each pantheon, and if we go the root of saying Allat is Astarte, then Astarte is Ishtar as well, and we get deep into the web of comparative mythology that leaves half the love and war goddesses in the Middle East combined into a single goddess. And honestly, if we're not doing that for the Indo-European gods, we shouldn't do that with the Semitic gods in my opinion.

    Personally, I would treat El as a primordial among the Elohim, Yahweh as a primordial from a pantheon long dead, with him as the sole survivor, and the two as distinct entities. The Alihah are pretty thoroughly a dead pantheon (they left behind even less than the Nemetondevos), and you could role with the idea that Yahweh took over Allah's mantle when Mohamed and his followers conquered the nomadic Arabs and wiped out the Alihah as Caesar and his his followers wiped out the Nemetondevos,

    And El would have Order and Sky as his purviews. Likely some other associations as well, but I'm going off the top of my head right now, so my bad if I missed any.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    You know what I just realized would be a terrifying possibility that would make a disturbing amount of sense in Scion's cosmology?

    Angels shun human worship, emanate from a distant formless creator, and are loyal to their ordained function above all else.

    Demons are angels who rebelled in ancient times over free will, thus changing their nature, and are VERY interested in human worship.

    What if the Archdemons of Hell are a pantheon of Gods who lost their Titanomachy? And the Archangels of that level of might are Titans?
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 07-31-2018, 05:07 PM.

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  • CrownedSun
    replied
    Honestly, I'll admit, ever since I got the whole "all myths are true, every the contradictory ones," thing...

    ...like I've never seen any ISSUE with any of these questions.

    The Monotheistic religions exist. They presumably worship somewhat distant Primordial-like entities, and are thus somewhat distant even on the divine scale, but indisputable exist and all of their dogma is explicitly and perfectly true. Including all of the heresies, misinterpretations, and schisms. Islam says there's no god but god? That's honestly not even a problem. It even explains why he didn't do anything about all the other gods,-- there ARE no other gods,-

    How can he intervene against things that don't exist?

    (Hell, Conversion to Islam could potentially be a good check if you piss off another god and are somewhat canny about the way the world works.)

    Why didn't the other gods intervene against the rise of Islam and check it?

    'cause God.

    It's hard to stop a God against whom, as far as he's concerned, you don't even exist.

    A distant theological position that equates non-existant entities who others worship as Gods as something similar to Djinn, for the sake of the common man, makes a certain amount of sense. From a theological point of view, however, other Gods literally don't exist. Scion's World is WEIRD, and there ARE differences, it just looks the same as ours on the surface. Yes, that in and of itself is one of the things about the World that is weird.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    It’s hard to say because similar Primordial creators don’t have spelled out defining natures yet (what’s Kitchi Manitou the Primordial of? Yu Huang? The Ometeotl?)

    That said, being RULED by one’s dominant purview is a Titan thing. But Primordials are said to be the platonic conceptual forms of entire Purviews and concepts (Ouranos IS Sky, Maya IS Deception, Nun IS Water, etc).
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 07-27-2018, 09:00 PM.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    I keep on thinking how theologically important it is in Islam how Allah is the God of Abraham, and how that's obviously backed up by the Semitic linguistic link between El/Eloah/Elohim and Alihah/al-Illah/Allah. Honestly the name "Allah" used by Mohammed is probably more directly connected to "El" the god of Abraham, than the name "YHWH" which Moses probably picked up among the Midianites is.

    So I'm inclined to interpret that the Elohim (Canaanite/Phoenician Pantheon) and Alihah (pre-Islamic Arabian Pantheon) as two wings of the same Semitic family descended from the same Primordial (El/Allah), with Abraham and Mohammed both having specifically turned away from the rest of the Pantheon to solely worship said one true creator. Under this interpretation, "Hubal" the original god of Mecca, whose idol Mohammed cast out of the Kaaba is probably the same deity as "Baal-Hadad", the crown god of the Pantheon being turned away from for the Primordial.

    This idea of a single Semitic pantheon for Scion is further backed up by Allat/al-Lat (literally the feminine of Allah, which implies a figure pre-Muslim Arabs saw as the Primordial's wife) having been used as a title for Asherah - the wife of El to the Canaanites, and early henotheistic Israelites.
    What would El be the Primordial of? (Or was the embodies-Purview-without-humanity thing for Titans?)

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  • Ashnak
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    I keep on thinking how theologically important it is in Islam how Allah is the God of Abraham, and how that's obviously backed up by the Semitic linguistic link between El/Eloah/Elohim and Alihah/al-Illah/Allah. Honestly the name "Allah" used by Mohammed is probably more directly connected to "El" the god of Abraham, than the name "YHWH" which Moses probably picked up among the Midianites is.

    So I'm inclined to interpret that the Elohim (Canaanite/Phoenician Pantheon) and Alihah (pre-Islamic Arabian Pantheon) as two wings of the same Semitic family descended from the same Primordial (El/Allah), with Abraham and Mohammed both having specifically turned away from the rest of the Pantheon to solely worship said one true creator. Under this interpretation, "Hubal" the original god of Mecca, whose idol Mohammed cast out of the Kaaba is probably the same deity as "Baal-Hadad", the crown god of the Pantheon being turned away from for the Primordial.

    This idea of a single Semitic pantheon for Scion is further backed up by Allat/al-Lat (literally the feminine of Allah, which implies a figure pre-Muslim Arabs saw as the Primordial's wife) having been used as a title for Asherah - the wife of El to the Canaanites, and early henotheistic Israelites.
    That's a fascinating (and kind of terrifying) theory, which essentially presents monotheists as the primordial Cult of El.

    Leave a comment:


  • glamourweaver
    replied
    I keep on thinking how theologically important it is in Islam how Allah is the God of Abraham, and how that's obviously backed up by the Semitic linguistic link between El/Eloah/Elohim and Alihah/al-Illah/Allah. Honestly the name "Allah" used by Mohammed is probably more directly connected to "El" the god of Abraham, than the name "YHWH" which Moses probably picked up among the Midianites is.

    So I'm inclined to interpret that the Elohim (Canaanite/Phoenician Pantheon) and Alihah (pre-Islamic Arabian Pantheon) as two wings of the same Semitic family descended from the same Primordial (El/Allah), with Abraham and Mohammed both having specifically turned away from the rest of the Pantheon to solely worship said one true creator. Under this interpretation, "Hubal" the original god of Mecca, whose idol Mohammed cast out of the Kaaba is probably the same deity as "Baal-Hadad", the crown god of the Pantheon being turned away from for the Primordial.

    This idea of a single Semitic pantheon for Scion is further backed up by Allat/al-Lat (literally the feminine of Allah, which implies a figure pre-Muslim Arabs saw as the Primordial's wife) having been used as a title for Asherah - the wife of El to the Canaanites, and early henotheistic Israelites.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

    We’ll see when see Scions take on the Slavic gods, but possible.

    I think he’d favor inventors themselves, not investors.

    Musk seems to be a mix of the two.. and he's very much getting Tesla's name out there.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    I feel like Tesla should be born of the Slavic Gods. And Elon Musk is possibly one of his first chosen.
    We’ll see when we see Scion's take on the Slavic gods, but possible.

    I think he’d favor inventors themselves, not investors.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-17-2018, 03:46 AM.

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