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Current Official Stance on the Monotheist Religion in the World (Possible spoilers)

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  • That was mostly an example. Snakes to sticks, though, that's definitely one I'm using. (Or rather, 'make object into reasonably similar animal via breath of life.')

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    • Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post
      That was mostly an example. Snakes to sticks, though, that's definitely one I'm using. (Or rather, 'make object into reasonably similar animal via breath of life.')
      Given how God specifically transmutes that Staff and tells Moses to go and perform miracles (Exodus 4), I’m more inclined to see that as a specific Relic rather than being something that’s a common power of Prophets, Saints, or Angels.


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      • I still think a psp similar to the Aztecs would suit them quite well, whether it’s recieving revelations from God and enacting miracles through his intervention in the case of prophets and saints or being the ones to deliver said revelations and messages as Angels and inspiring people to become the former. That is something I think is common enough and central enough that it could be the theme behind a psp.


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        • Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post
          I still think a psp similar to the Aztecs would suit them quite well, whether it’s recieving revelations from God and enacting miracles through his intervention in the case of prophets and saints or being the ones to deliver said revelations and messages as Angels and inspiring people to become the former. That is something I think is common enough and central enough that it could be the theme behind a psp.
          If “Prophets and Saints” are Chosen Scions though, how is that different from normal anointing of Chosen?


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          • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

            If “Prophets and Saints” are Chosen Scions though, how is that different from normal anointing of Chosen?
            I wouldn’t think all Saints and Prophets would be Scions, a lot would but I wouldn’t think all, many I would see at just being cultists. I mean we already have Saints a supernatural path in the core book, basing a psp around that Path might be something. The idea being with the PSP is that you can anoint Saints without making them Scions, they would still be legendary but they wouldn’t have the extra oomph of a Scion, they can become Scions but not necessarily all start that way, they would have had the Supernatural Path first. If you are a Saint Scion the psp would allow you to do more stuff then what your supernatural knacks would give you, more focused and more powerful, with likely as soon as Demigod level inspire other mortals to adopt the Pantheon Virtues and gain the Saint Supernatural Path. That’s one way I see it going at least.

            Also going by the text it does seem like Prophets should be a supernatural path with the ones under Apollo as an example though since there isn’t one in the book I wonder whether it got smushed with Saints or not.
            Last edited by Iceblade44; 10-10-2018, 08:53 PM.


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            • Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post

              I wouldn’t think all Saints and Prophets would be Scions, a lot would but I wouldn’t think all, many I would see at just being cultists. I mean we already have Saints a supernatural path in the core book, basing a psp around that Path might be something. The idea being with the PSP is that you can anoint Saints without making them Scions, they would still be legendary but they wouldn’t have the extra oomph of a Scion, they can become Scions but not necessarily all start that way, they would have had the Supernatural Path first. If you are a Saint Scion the psp would allow you to do more stuff then what your supernatural knacks would give you, more focused and more powerful, with likely as soon as Demigod level inspire other mortals to adopt the Pantheon Virtues and gain the Saint Supernatural Path. That’s one way I see it going at least.

              Also going by the text it does seem like Prophets should be a supernatural path with the ones under Apollo as an example though since there isn’t one in the book I wonder whether it got smushed with Saints or not.
              OH. I see: You are using Saints and Prophets the way Scion mechanics use the term. I was confused because I was thinking of the Abrahamic senses of those terms!

              This is why I wish the game had called people gifted with knowledge of the future “Oracles”.
              Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-10-2018, 09:24 PM.


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              • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                You are using Saints and Prophets the way Scion mechanics use the term. I was using the term the way Abrahamic religions use the terms. Very different things.
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                I know that they are a different thing but to me I see it as something which could be turned into a more Abrahamic definition, possibly. As it is now, a Saint in Scion is a mortal that develops a Virtue track thus embodies a Pantheons sets of virtues, with their knacks being able to perform general enough miracles as we understand it through Twists of Fate(healing the sick, resurrecting the dead) and ignoring mythical scale. They are greatly based on the idea of are common perception we have of Saints but as you said to the literal definitions of Saints whether it's the Christian, Jewish or Muslim faiths it isn't accurate, they can't be since it must be something all pantheons could potentially have. But while that is true that doesn't mean that through a PSP they couldn't be turned into something more of the classical definitions. I mean taking mechanics into this isn't a bad idea, that is why I brought in the comparison of the Aztecs. All Pantheons is able and do benefit from sacrifices, but with the PSP the Aztecs can get more from it then anyone else, making it there niche. Same with the Greeks, many Gods are noted about their shapeshifting prowess, but none are as prolific and widespreed as it is with the Greek Gods. Taking a common ability or mechanic is fine, it is with a PSP though they can take it onto new levels and closer to the cultural significance it has towards the Pantheon.

                So in the case of an Abrahamic pantheon, those who adopt the Faith's Virtues and become Saints would get more from it then any other Pantheon, with instead of it being the common general Saint with the definition spread out so it could be any of the Pantheons to being the Abrahamic definition, whether its saint, wali, or tzadik(though of course the definitions between all those terms aren't exactly all the same, they are similar enough that they could all generally get the same thing) and gaining power from that with specific Boons. Same as how the Aztec PSP takes the general mechanic of sacrifice and turn it into Aztec Sacrifice, I can see it being applied similarly here or at least that's how I think anyway.


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                • As I see it, there really aren't many mythical examples of Abrahamic Scions, even taking into account the wider selection of origins in 2e. In fact, only Samson and the Golem strike me as possible Judaic Scions, and Jesus is the only Scion of the Christian faith — and I don't know enough about Islam to identify any potential Muslim Scions. For the most part, Demigod- and God-level playable Abrahamic characters would most likely be angels or djinni (with angels being the primary choice for Christianity and probably Judaism, and djinni being the primary choice for Islam, given the latter faith's view about angels lacking agency).

                  Now, in the World that's probably different: arguably the near-complete absence of what amounts to superpowered champions of God in the real world comes in one part from God or His angels intervening more or less directly instead of investing power into human champions, and in another party from the lack of competition: arguably, there aren't any Scions in the real world for God's followers to contend with.

                  But in the World, I could see there being many more Chosen Abrahamic Scions, possibly with a bias toward Saints eventually being Chosen. There's still a question as to whether they'd be able to progress to Demigod-level, let alone God-level (and I'm inclined to hold off on answering those questions until I've seen the manuscripts for Demigod and God, respectively); but one of the goals of Scion 2e is to have things set up such that the gradual progression through the tiers is optional, if I understand it correctly. (I'm hoping that when Demigod comes out, it will include support for characters who have always been demigods, and not just for skiing over the first parts of a Scion's life.


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                  • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    As I see it, there really aren't many mythical examples of Abrahamic Scions, even taking into account the wider selection of origins in 2e. In fact, only Samson and the Golem strike me as possible Judaic Scions
                    There is a reason so many Pantheon Approaches involve prayer/sacrifice/etc. Miracles wielded by Scions are often ascribed to divine intervention on their patron deity's part. Moses would be in no way unique in that regard. Also the battle feats of King David were often borderline-superhuman in scope, and Solomon is effectively attributed with powerful sorcery.

                    To say nothing of post Biblical figures like the Bal Shem Tov!


                    and Jesus is the only Scion of the Christian faith
                    See every single miracle wielding Saint (in the Catholic sense, not the Scion sense of the word "Saint"). You don’t think Francis of Assisi had the Beast Purview? Again, prayer for intercession is not at all out of step as a Pantheon Approach.
                    Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-11-2018, 03:13 AM.


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                    • Prayer for intercession is something that I see Saints being able to do, even without Purviews or their Boons. I'm talking about legendary figures who can pull off supernatural results without resorting to prayer — though admittedly at the Hero level, Boobs tend to work through Relics.


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                      • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        Prayer for intercession is something that I see Saints being able to do, even without Purviews or their Boons. I'm talking about legendary figures who can pull off supernatural results without resorting to prayer — though admittedly at the Hero level, Boobs tend to work through Relics.

                        The Manitou, Kami, Teotl, and Theoi Scions generally all beseech external powers for intercession to perform Marvels, via their Pantheon Motifs (accidentally said "Approaches" above, my mistake) on page 279 of the Hero draft text.


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                        • To perform Marvels, yes. But Marvels aren't Boons, as you've pointed out. And I'm having some difficulty with the notion that you need a Purview in order to expect God to answer your prayers.


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                          • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            To perform Marvels, yes. But Marvels aren't Boons, as you've pointed out. And I'm having some difficulty with the notion that you need a Purview in order to expect God to answer your prayers.

                            Without them you can't "expect" a God to answer your prayers. Is intervention possible without a purview? Sure, if the Storyteller decides it's plot relevant for an NPC (the deity) to step in. But if your character is a faith healer who reliably can perform miraculous healings like the Apostles - that's going to take the Health Purview.

                            The power in play in the cosmological sense when Moses parted the Red Sea was Yahweh's, but Moses still took the active step of holding out his staff knowing what would happen. It wasn't just a miracle that intervened to benefit him, it was one he CALLED UPON.

                            In contrast, the pillar of fire blocking the Egyptians might have been more a unilateral action by Yahweh, or via an angel.
                            Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-11-2018, 06:47 AM.


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                            • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                              I should mention the Covenant Purview pretty much shot down the PSP I was working on, so I'm open to other suggestions.
                              Ah this reminds me, it looks like their is potential that the Covenant Purview will be turned into more of a birthright, going by what was said on Discord.

                              So thinking about that, what was the original psp you were working on?


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                              • Something that enhanced your power with mortals via them upholding their end of a given covenant. I was going to play with the idea that the Fallen having soul-contracts was a corruption of this that played on the same metaphysical principles.

                                But now i’m leaning toward more overtly angelic effects involving the invisible radiance of God.


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