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Current Official Stance on the Monotheist Religion in the World (Possible spoilers)

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Manbat View Post
    Jewish/Christian God and Allah two Mantles of the same Primordial Deity
    I really don't think Allah is more different from the One God of Abraham than the Holy Trinity is. If I was going to pick which Abrahamic religion's predominant theology is the odd one out of the three, it'd have to be the one where God has a flesh and blood Son who is also God - but there's only One God because they're three in one at the same time. That concept would nonsensical applied to the predominant Jewish perspective of God (which you may note in the New Testament is why Paul gives up on the Jews and focuses on converting pagans, because a dying and resurrecting flesh and blood deity was a concept they could wrap their heads around).

    That's a really interesting idea on the Virtues!
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 07-31-2018, 09:49 PM.


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    • #62
      Originally posted by ~NKF~ View Post
      Well, while I can agree with some points, I do want to point out that not only are El and Yahweh distinct deities who were conflated overtime,
      Well aware. I was thinking that YHWH's ascension to be conflated with El was the point the "Creation Myth" was performed that created the separate mythic history and the monotheistic cosmology and pantheon that exists alongside the all the others was born. In this hypothetical as far the Malakim are concerned, the Canaanite gods ARE their disloyal fallen brethren.

      Allat is Astarte, then Astarte is Ishtar as well, and we get deep into the web of comparative mythology that leaves half the love and war goddesses in the Middle East combined into a single goddess. And honestly, if we're not doing that for the Indo-European gods, we shouldn't do that with the Semitic gods in my opinion.
      No, I said Allat is Asherah, not Astarte. Ugaritic sources clearly distinguish between Asherah and Astarte (the latter of whom is Ishtar/Inanna hanging out in another pantheon, the former of whom is the Elohim's Queen of Heaven, also called "Elat").


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      • #63
        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
        I really don't think Allah is more different from the One God of Abraham than the Holy Trinity is. If I was going to pick which Abrahamic religion's predominant theology is the odd one out of the three, it'd have to be the one where God has a flesh and blood Son who is also God - but there's only One God because they're three in one at the same time. That concept would nonsensical applied to the predominant Jewish perspective of God (which you may note in the New Testament is why Paul gives up on the Jews and focuses on converting pagans, because a dying and resurrecting flesh and blood deity was a concept they could wrap their heads around).
        I agree, definitely, and thought the same, at first, in the following sense:

        The One God of Abraham and Allah are Mantles of each other, but they also are Mantle of a third deity: the Father, which is a Triple Deity, with Christ and the Holy Spirit (sometimes, not everybody agrees). While the latter (the Holy Spirit) would not be an actual God, with his own will (mostly), but being more of an Incarnation of the Will of the One God/The Father/Allah Deity (which could, by itself, be a triple deity, but with a inside triple deity inside. Most of the time).

        I thought it was very weird, specially considering that this Odd Pantheon of One God (or not) has also a Primordial, that is this same one deity, which not only dont work very well with any of the books rules so far, but also has a potential to be very offensive.

        So I opted out in choosing to use the different Religions as general doctrines as Patronages. Could also be seem as patronage form the specific Prophet/Messiah sent by God. Like, having Muhammad as a potential Patron, with a few Purviews to choose, Christ as other potential Patron, with his different Purviews, and maybe Moses as a different Patron (I dont know enough of Jewish tradition to know who to put here. Maybe David would be better, I honestly dont know).

        So I thought this could be even more potentially offensive, as I was now naming different Prophets/Messiahs, so I decided to just organize all deities in this one Multi-Mantle Triple Primordial, and putting the Religion as a "general concept" of what the Patronage entails, with somewhat different Purviews for each one.

        I still like my second idea with the Prophets/Messiahs the best, but I know many people can interpret it badly and I was thinking in actually writing a fan-made pantheon at time.

        Also, I was thinking, and in the World, probably most of believers from non-Abrahamic religions see Jezus in the same way as we see Heracles or Kali. Like a Scion/Incarnation of some sort that became a God/Mantle.

        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
        That's a really interesting idea on the Virtues!
        Thanks.
        Last edited by Manbat; 07-31-2018, 10:11 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

          Well aware. I was thinking that YHWH's ascension to be conflated with El was the point the "Creation Myth" was performed that created the separate mythic history and the monotheistic cosmology and pantheon that exists alongside the all the others was born. In this hypothetical as far the Malakim are concerned, the Canaanite gods ARE their disloyal fallen brethren.



          No, I said Allat is Asherah, not Astarte. Ugaritic sources clearly distinguish between Asherah and Astarte (the latter of whom is Ishtar/Inanna hanging out in another pantheon, the former of whom is the Elohim's Queen of Heaven, also called "Elat").

          Oh, I gotcha now. I personally would rather keep El around as a separate Canaanite primordial as again, they really don't have a lot in common past El being used as a generic word for god in Hebrew, And for some reason I read that as Astarte, so my bad there. While some scholars do argue the two of them are the same, I definitely agree with Asherah and Astarte as separate goddesses. However, I still stand by not being a fan of conflating Semitic goddesses. I'll admit, my knowledge of the Alihah is limited, but I don't know of Allat having associations with the sea like Asherah does, nor does Asherah have associations as a war goddess like Astarte and Anat, which is something I've always seen associated with Allat.

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          • #65
            The point I struggle on is that El was the God of Abraham, and was the God initially worshipped in the Temple of Solomon (hence Asherah's off and on inclusion); the conflation with foreign YHWH coming very gradually. If it's just YHWH, and not El, then it's not the god of Abraham.

            My thinking are Primordials are HUGE and mysterious, and YHWH's ascension effectively created a new face (a Mantle in God terms) of the whole.


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            • #66
              I’m considering a Malakim Pantheon writeup based on Judaic lore, then an extension chapter with how to revamp the Pantheon with Christian elements, including deity write-up of Jesus, Saints as Guides, and replacing Samael as a Pantheon member with instead having a sub-Pantheon of archdemons.


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              • #67
                Wait a minute... What if "deals with the devil" are how the ArchDemons select their chosen Scions? And all those blues/rock musicians who made deals with the devil like Jimi Hendrix were chosen Scions of Amduscias...

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                  Wait a minute... What if "deals with the devil" are how the ArchDemons select their chosen Scions? And all those blues/rock musicians who made deals with the devil like Jimi Hendrix were chosen Scions of Amduscias...
                  I was thinking Robert Johnson would have been a Chosen of Kalfu - given that crossroad bargains are Kalfu’s whole shtick, and he is synchronized with Satan.

                  I have a whole list of American folk heroes and historic figures with surrounding mythology who I’m thinking of using as demigod level Scions of different Pantheons scattered throughout the World, Underworld, and Overworld, that Columbia wants PCs to assemble to perform a Creation Myth creating a US Pantheon. Robert Johnson, Chosen of Kalfu, is the potential God of Music.
                  Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-02-2018, 08:56 PM.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                    The point I struggle on is that El was the God of Abraham, and was the God initially worshipped in the Temple of Solomon (hence Asherah's off and on inclusion); the conflation with foreign YHWH coming very gradually. If it's just YHWH, and not El, then it's not the god of Abraham.

                    My thinking are Primordials are HUGE and mysterious, and YHWH's ascension effectively created a new face (a Mantle in God terms) of the whole.
                    Hmm, I do get the issue, and I can get behind that idea. My main problem was just El being way too important to the Elohim to be removed from their roster, but as different faces of the same primordial that wouldn't be as much of a problem. I could be wrong (many of my books are older and possibly outdated) but my understanding is that the Jewish people brought Yahweh with them to Canaan and then conflated him with the native Canaanite El, so do we know El was the god of Abraham?

                    There's also the Babylonian and Canaanite gods who became demons in later Jewish and Christian belief that can be played around with, but I don't know how well that would work out. Astaroth and Beelzebub are both high ranking demons in demonology and yet are clearly corruptions of Astarte and Baal, and of course you also have Tammuz and Moloch often being counted as demons. Maybe some sort of strange mantles? Just a thought.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ~NKF~ View Post

                      Hmm, I do get the issue, and I can get behind that idea. My main problem was just El being way too important to the Elohim to be removed from their roster, but as different faces of the same primordial that wouldn't be as much of a problem. I could be wrong (many of my books are older and possibly outdated) but my understanding is that the Jewish people brought Yahweh with them to Canaan and then conflated him with the native Canaanite El, so do we know El was the god of Abraham?

                      There's also the Babylonian and Canaanite gods who became demons in later Jewish and Christian belief that can be played around with, but I don't know how well that would work out. Astaroth and Beelzebub are both high ranking demons in demonology and yet are clearly corruptions of Astarte and Baal, and of course you also have Tammuz and Moloch often being counted as demons. Maybe some sort of strange mantles? Just a thought.
                      The tradition of Abraham is believed to have originated in the western Semitic region as a henotheistic focus on El. Many scholars don’t believe there was even an ethnic distinction between the Israelites and the Canaanites: it was just a distinction between polytheistic city/farming-folk and the henotheistic nomadic shepherds (note the devout shepherd vs decadent, often polytheistic farmer conflicts that run through Tanakh).

                      It’s around the time of Moses that YHWH would have entered the picture - presumably picked up during the events that influenced the Exodus narrative (which in reality may or may not have actually involved Egypt, and may have been an earlier EASTERN Semitic captivity like the future Babylonian captivity; but for the purposes of the World, let’s assume the myth of Exodus is generally historic). YWHW reveals Himself to Moses when he was living in exile among the Midinaites, and that is where many scholars believe the god originated from.

                      It’s upon their coming to the promised land from exile in “Egypt” that the YHWH vs El conflict and gradual conflation happens. But going all the way back to Abraham, YHWH wasn’t in the picture yet.
                      Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-02-2018, 07:44 PM.


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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ~NKF~ View Post
                        There's also the Babylonian and Canaanite gods who became demons in later Jewish and Christian belief that can be played around with, but I don't know how well that would work out. Astaroth and Beelzebub are both high ranking demons in demonology and yet are clearly corruptions of Astarte and Baal, and of course you also have Tammuz and Moloch often being counted as demons. Maybe some sort of strange mantles? Just a thought.
                        Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, because I honestly know far more about the Archdemons than the Elohim they're loosely based on, but most of them have very little in common with the deities who they are corruptions of. Ba'al Hadad has nothing in common with the Lord of the Flies (Beelzebub), the giant three-headed spider monster (Bael) or the scatological sloth demon (Belphegor). And Astarte really isn't known for her habit of riding crocodiles around in Hell. She and Astaroth aren't even the same gender, and I don't believe that Astarte is a dual-gendered goddess. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I think most of these figures should be separate from the Elohim, with their similar names possibly being the result of confusion by mortal worshippers. There are a few exceptions though. My understanding of Moloch is that the Canaanite deity was every bit as terrifying as the later demon, and that the way he's described in the Bible was more or less accurate. Tammuz I'm not sure about. He is sometimes listed as a demon, but he's not one of the major ones; he isn't in the Ars Goetia and he's never listed as one of the Seven Princes of Hell.

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                        • #72
                          My take on it:
                          1. El was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; in the time of Abraham, He arranged for Abraham to leave Ur and settle in Canaan; in the time of Joseph, he arranged to have Jacob's family moved from Canaan to Egypt. Remember, All Myths Are True; and the reality-editing nature of establishing a mythological origin story rewrites history so that that origin story is true. As far as the Jews and Christians are concerned, the above is what really happened, regardless of what real-world research says on the subject. In this regard, the Abrahamic Faiths are no different than any Pantheon's mythology.

                          2. Moses is recruited by Yahweh to bring Jacob's descendants out of Egypt and back to Canaan, where they take over the land of Israel and eventually set up the Kingdom of Israel. The Israelites eventually come too worship Yahweh as the One God. Ironically, Yahweh is acting counter to the Elohim; in fact, Yahweh's claims to be El late a political maneuver designed to usurp El's authority. The end result is that El's children (the Canaanite Pantheon) and Yahweh's children (Titans) are at odds with each other. Yahweh is the Primordial who sponsors Judaism.

                          3. El creates a new Scion, Yeshua the Nazarene. Yeshua spends three years around the Sea of Galilee laying the groundwork for a new religion, then Ascends to El's right hand, sending a “helper” (origins unspecified, but closely tied to El) to watch over the fledgling Church and to help it to stand up against both Yahweh's forces and the Theoi's efforts to snuff them out. This “Holy Spirit” is the Primordial who backs Christianity.

                          4. I'm not as well versed on this part; but it also begins in the time of Abraham: his first son, Ishmael, is exiled from his camp. Somehow, either Ishmael or his descendants make their way to the Arabian peninsula, and become followers of the Aliyah. Thousands of years later, the last of the Aliyah, Allah, contacts a descendant of Ishmael named Mohammad and helps him set up Islam, in a manner not unlike how Yahweh recruited Moses to set up Judaism. Allah is the Primordial who rules over Islam.

                          5. I know that there are other Abrahamic Faiths; but I don't know anywhere close to enough about any of them to even begin to guess how they fit in.

                          6. Each Abrahamic Faith has a Primordial serving as its conception of the One God. As the Primordials are as far above the gods as the gods are above humans, we don't really know if El, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit, and Allah are separate Mantles of a single Primordial or if they're separate Primordials. Christianity is unique among the three in having Yeshua (now known as Jesus) as a Legend 12 God in an alliance with El and the Holy Spirit. It's possible that all three are now just Mantles of a single Deity; or not. But other than that, none of the Abrahamic “Pantheons” have any Gods in their ranks; they instead have Titans and Titanspawn, along with any mortal priests, prophets, and saints that align with the Abrahamic Faiths.

                          7. Still thinking about what relationship, if any, Lucifer and his Fallen Angels have with the Canaanite Pantheon.

                          8. Oh yeah: each one of these has its own Virtues. There's a fair amount of similarity; but a Jewish Saint, a Christian Saint, and a Muslim Saint will each have somewhat different Virtues. And there Virtues come from each religion's teachings, not from outside criticisms of them, just like every other mythology in the game: they should be built on their own terms, not on what scholars say is the “truth” about them. Again, this is a game where All Myths Are Real, and the game should reflect the Myths.
                          Last edited by Dataweaver; 08-03-2018, 05:08 AM.


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                          • #73
                            How would you guys go about interpreting Iblis, his sons, and the other powerful unique Islamic Djinn? Islam doesn't have many figures that I could see being Legend 9-12 deities, but I could see them being treated similarly to the Archdemons.

                            Also, fun question: The Four Horsemen. What are they in regards to the game?

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                              How would you guys go about interpreting Iblis, his sons, and the other powerful unique Islamic Djinn? Islam doesn't have many figures that I could see being Legend 9-12 deities, but I could see them being treated similarly to the Archdemons.

                              Also, fun question: The Four Horsemen. What are they in regards to the game?
                              First off, I imagine that “djinn” is generally how Muslims in the World see all the objectively existing legend-wielding entities they would never call “Gods”. So the Anuunaki, Elohim, Alihah, Shiunesh, Netjer, Deva, etc: all Djinn. As are the associated Titans.

                              In the Malakim Pantheon writeup i’m tinkering with, I’m considering “Iblis” being an alternate name of the Titan Azazel.

                              I’m inclined to just see the Horsemen as metaphors since that’s what they clearly are in the context of Revelation. But if you wanted to make Health, War, Prosperity, and Death Titans off the apocryphal folklore around them, it would be in keeping with Scion being a game about mythology and not religion. - They could be bound by the Malakim and released specifically to unleash desired destruction.
                              Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-03-2018, 06:04 PM.


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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                                Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, because I honestly know far more about the Archdemons than the Elohim they're loosely based on, but most of them have very little in common with the deities who they are corruptions of. Ba'al Hadad has nothing in common with the Lord of the Flies (Beelzebub), the giant three-headed spider monster (Bael) or the scatological sloth demon (Belphegor). And Astarte really isn't known for her habit of riding crocodiles around in Hell. She and Astaroth aren't even the same gender, and I don't believe that Astarte is a dual-gendered goddess. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I think most of these figures should be separate from the Elohim, with their similar names possibly being the result of confusion by mortal worshippers. There are a few exceptions though. My understanding of Moloch is that the Canaanite deity was every bit as terrifying as the later demon, and that the way he's described in the Bible was more or less accurate. Tammuz I'm not sure about. He is sometimes listed as a demon, but he's not one of the major ones; he isn't in the Ars Goetia and he's never listed as one of the Seven Princes of Hell.

                                Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have a lot in common, just that many demons were derived from gods and goddesses from other cultures. So you could just treat them as that, attempts to demonize other gods, but if you do want those particular demons in game, I just feel you could play around with their possible connections to deities. You can definitely ignore Astaroth coming from Ashtoret, the Hebrew name for Astarte, or Beelzebub coming from Baal Zebub, and just treat them as beings with similar names, it was just an idea. Moloch is tricky, we mostly only know him from Hebrew sources that we have to assume were correct with a lack of evidence for him in any of the Canaanite sources. Tammuz is often listed as a demon, and tends to be little more than a name in Demonology texts, so you can definitely ignore that, a lot of it probably comes from Paradise Lost where he's listed among Satan's demons. I was just throwing out examples that came to mind. In his case, Tammuz is mentioned in the bible as a false idol, likely due to the prevalence of his cult which outlived almost all other Mesopotamian cults.

                                One that I don't know why I didn't think of before that really could be worked in is Lilith and her connection to Lamashtu who had a very similar function in Mesopotamian belief.

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