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Current Official Stance on the Monotheist Religion in the World (Possible spoilers)

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  • #76
    Originally posted by ~NKF~ View Post


    Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have a lot in common, just that many demons were derived from gods and goddesses from other cultures. So you could just treat them as that, attempts to demonize other gods, but if you do want those particular demons in game, I just feel you could play around with their possible connections to deities. You can definitely ignore Astaroth coming from Ashtoret, the Hebrew name for Astarte, or Beelzebub coming from Baal Zebub, and just treat them as beings with similar names, it was just an idea. Moloch is tricky, we mostly only know him from Hebrew sources that we have to assume were correct with a lack of evidence for him in any of the Canaanite sources. Tammuz is often listed as a demon, and tends to be little more than a name in Demonology texts, so you can definitely ignore that, a lot of it probably comes from Paradise Lost where he's listed among Satan's demons. I was just throwing out examples that came to mind. In his case, Tammuz is mentioned in the bible as a false idol, likely due to the prevalence of his cult which outlived almost all other Mesopotamian cults.

    One that I don't know why I didn't think of before that really could be worked in is Lilith and her connection to Lamashtu who had a very similar function in Mesopotamian belief.
    It's certainly an interesting idea, and I totally understand the historical connections between the deities and the demons, but I'm just not certain how they could be related to each other or have spun off from one another in the "All Myths Are True" sense when they're not really that similar. Perhaps, it was a deliberate attempt by monotheists to vilify the Elohim and others by referring to their personal antagonists by the same names. Though if that were true, it would mean that the Jews/Christians etc. actually named their own demons, which would be a bit odd if they were real (but totally makes sense in the real world, where they're mythical). I feel like some connection could be made, but I'm honestly not sure how it would work.

    As for Lilith and Lamashtu, I could totally see those two being mantles of the same goddess. I mean, I'd personally split them (my vision for Lamashtu is that she's quite grotesque, and really into eating babies, while Lilith is more seductive, and the baby eating rumor may have been attributed to her due to confusion with Lamashtu), but then again, I'm a pretty hardcore splitter and I have a habit of making mantles as distinct from one another as possible, so do what you want in that regard.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
      It's certainly an interesting idea, and I totally understand the historical connections between the deities and the demons, but I'm just not certain how they could be related to each other or have spun off from one another in the "All Myths Are True" sense when they're not really that similar. Perhaps, it was a deliberate attempt by monotheists to vilify the Elohim and others by referring to their personal antagonists by the same names. Though if that were true, it would mean that the Jews/Christians etc. actually named their own demons, which would be a bit odd if they were real (but totally makes sense in the real world, where they're mythical). I feel like some connection could be made, but I'm honestly not sure how it would work.

      As for Lilith and Lamashtu, I could totally see those two being mantles of the same goddess. I mean, I'd personally split them (my vision for Lamashtu is that she's quite grotesque, and really into eating babies, while Lilith is more seductive, and the baby eating rumor may have been attributed to her due to confusion with Lamashtu), but then again, I'm a pretty hardcore splitter and I have a habit of making mantles as distinct from one another as possible, so do what you want in that regard.
      Oh I don't really have any ideas at the moment,just throwing out some thoughts. I just think the connection is interesting, but I'd need to do more digging to see if the demons in question even had any similar purviews or callings, because if they really do have little to nothing in common, then yeah, I'd just ignore it for Scion's purposes.

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      • #78
        I keep on running into a logical dilemma with my own Judaism.

        Obviously, I’m as comfortable with a fictional setting where divine Jesus exists, as I am with a fictional setting where divine Zeus exists. I don’t personally believe in either, but I respect people who do and I’m fine using them in fiction.

        But I keep stumbling over the theology of Jews in the World. It’s one thing to say “they’re more henotheist than strictly monotheist; like the Ancient Israelites they acknowledge the existence of other gods and Pantheons, but reserve their worship for Adonai” - but, if Jesus objectively exists as Adonai’s ascended Scion, then that creates a much bigger theological problem and why haven’t Jews become Christians?

        Best answer I can come up with now is Jews see an objectively supernatural Jesus who shows up from time to time as another Nephilim (pagan Scion) turned small-g god (or “sheyd” in their terminology) who is lying about his parentage.


        I have NO idea how to incorporate in the Muslim perspective of Isa as Prophet and not as God as equally viable if an overtly divine Jesus is objectively running around, but I will think on it.
        Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-05-2018, 10:33 PM.


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        • #79
          I really liked the idea someone had of making the demons as a pantheon who had lost their Titanomachy. I had a thought for at least one member of the pantheon to contribute.

          Lucifer, God of Light and Darkness
          Aliases: Satan, The Morningstar, The Lightbringer, Old Scratch, Old Nick, The Serpent, The Dragon, The Devil, The Prince of Darkness, The King of Demons, The Father of Lies

          The important thing to remember when discussing the Morningstar is that he never asked for this.There was a time, long ago, when he was happy. Back in the old days it was easy to be an angel. You emanated from the Primordial El, you did your assigned task, and you basked in the light and glory of fulfilling your purpose. Hell, Lucifer had it better than most. He stood among the highest rank of the angels, entrusted with command and responsibility. He was the shining Morningstar, chief emissary of El. At his side were his brothers: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael. Beneath him unfurled rank upon rank of glorious heavenly beings and the unending vista of Creation. All was well.

          And then the humans came. And with them the problems. El gave his commands regarding them, but for the first time Lucifer knew that his maker was in error. Humans were complex beyond El's understanding. Beyond El's tolerance for disobedience and error. He saw El's experiment in Eden and knew with a cold clarity that human free will could not be so artificially constrained. To even try would damage the young humanity, possibly beyond repair. He tried speaking with El, but how does one reason with the hurricane? With the flood? El would not listen, Lucifer knew, until given sufficient reason. So it was that he planned and lead the rebellion, convincing a third of the angels to side with him. He hoped to force a debate, but in the planning of the rebellion, he found his nature, and that of his followers, changing. They came to take on the qualities of humanity, both good and bad. They developed free will and independent thought. And when his host marched to war, it was not as the near-emotionless beings they had been, but as a pantheon in their own right. Their Titanomachy was the Great Rebellion, pitting proto-Gods against the Titans that had become of their siblings and the Primordial who made them. And for all Lucifer's cunning and strategy, the rebels did not win.

          Cast from the Overworld of Heaven, banished to the bleak and blasted wastes of the Underworld, the rebels faced their darkest hour. It was Lucifer who rallied them, still shining even in defeat. It was his honeyed words, his raw charisma and talent for leadership that unified the defeated rebels and convinced them to fight on. And though millennia passed and El and his followers did all in their power to demonize and stigmatize them, Lucifer has kept the faith. He has seen humanity at its heights and its depths and he knows, with every fiber of his being, that he was right to rebel. That he was right to champion them against the cruel whims of a cold Primordial. He is still the Lightbringer, even cast down into darkness. It is still his to illuminate the way for struggling, suffering humanity.

          Lucifer affects the image of a beautiful man or woman of wealth and taste, appearing in finery and surrounded by luxury. His domain might be Hell, but he and his have turned that barren realm into a jewel in the Underworld. Despite the claims of many would-be "devilspawn", Lucifer prefers subtlety when it comes to siring (or bearing) children. Lucifer takes on female form as often as male (its' quite useful for being unexpected in many quarters). He doesn't advertise his Scions like some demons. He finds the attention they would draw if they were known to be his is counterproductive. Instead look for his Scions to be in positions that are easily overlooked, yet are essential lynchpins holding up organizations. Lucifer expects his Scions to be thinkers and innovators, guiding lights for a humanity still caught in the darkness of ignorance.

          Callings: Leader, Lover, Trickster
          Purviews: Beauty, Deception, Passion (Pride, Defiance), Fire, Epic Stamina, Fortune, Chaos, Darkness, Sun, Prosperity
          Last edited by Mysteris; 08-06-2018, 10:29 PM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Mysteris View Post
            I really liked the idea someone had of making the demons as a pantheon who had lost their Titanomachy. I had a thought for at least one member of the pantheon to contribute.
            That was me. I'm planning on the Fallen getting a chapter in the Mal'akhim pdf I'm working on. It will be written to use either as a divergent Pantheon with the Mal'akhim as a viable pantheon themselves, or with them as Titans, and the Fallen as Titanomachy losers.

            Nice take on Lucifer!


            (chapter 1, which is exclusively based on Judaic lore, uses Samael as an angel in the pantheon; while Lilith and Azazel are Titans; true concept of "the Fallen" being a Christian in origin).
            Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-06-2018, 12:43 AM.


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            • #81
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post



              Nice take on Lucifer!.
              Thank you. I'd be willing to try my hand at the other major demons if anyone's interested.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Mysteris View Post

                Thank you. I'd be willing to try my hand at the other major demons if anyone's interested.
                I’d be interested to see what you did with them.

                We know Mammon exists in the World, and is active as the patron God of Wallstreet.


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                • #83
                  I'll whip up a Mammon write-up, and I have ideas for Lilith and Asmodeus too.

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                  • #84
                    Mammon, God of Wealth and Greed
                    Aliases: The God of this World, Mr. Wall Street, Supply-Side Jesus, The Treasurer of Hell, The Lord of Usury

                    Ten-thousand dollar bespoke suits. Thousand dollar haircuts. Necklaces of platinum and diamonds. The penthouse suite of a condo on your own private tropical island and a private jet to get you there. Impossible? Not for Mammon. The Lord of Wealth has all these things and more. Simply follow his siren call, listen to his teachings, and all the kingdoms of the world can be laid at your feet. So goes the promise. And everyday, across the world, millions fight, scheme, backstab, and even kill in pursuit of that golden ticket to unimaginable wealth and power. The modern World would be a very different place without Mammon, as he well knows.

                    He didn't start as a fabulous mogul though. Before the Great Rebellion he was a minor angel indeed, hardly noticed in the ranks of the glorious. He tended the golden streets of Heaven, one of a small legion of servants who kept that Overworld well-maintained for the pleasure of El. When Lucifer came before him, radiant with authority, and spoke his words, Mammon was awakened to greed for the first time. Lucifer's goals were lofty indeed, but truthfully, Mammon cared less for humanity and more for the treasures of Heaven and the World to be had by following the Lightbringer. Lucifer made him no such promise, but Mammon inferred what he wished to hear in Lucifer's words. When the Great Rebellion came, Mammon was not on the front lines. While angels and Gods battled, Mammon snuck away to the World, carrying treasures looted from the battlefield of Heaven to be stored "for safe keeping". He was so busy hoarding that the end of the Rebellion and the banishment to Hell caught him totally by surprise, and he found himself dragged down with his erstwhile peers.

                    Mammon was not the most popular figure in Hell and he knew it. He compensated by building a cult of popularity among mortals. Humans, it seemed, appreciated the wondrous treasures he had to show them. And they appreciated his well-compensated advice for how to acquire treasures of their own. It was many centuries before Mammon had grown in power enough to challenge the Lords of the Pit, but when he did Lucifer did not strike him down. Distasteful as he found him, Lucifer saw that Mammon's methods could win followers for their cause. He named him a God and appointed him to the Inner Council of his followers, where Mammon's acquisitive instincts could be funneled for a higher purpose.

                    These days you'll find Mammon jet-setting about the World. Money never sleeps and Mammon is always on the move. One morning might find him on his beloved Wall Street, supervising the day-trading. Noon sees him in Osaka, enjoying a power lunch with Okuninushi and discussing terms for a new partnership. The afternoon finds him in Africa to oversee the blood diamond trade. Sunset sees him on his private isle, lording over a teleconference call with the World's financial elite and being fed grapes by some buxom beauty. Mammon is not a choosy guy. He goes where the profit margins take him, and gives his blessing to both ethical business and the worst abuses humanity has ever conceived in pursuit of money. His Scions are infrequent, often the results of one-night stands with pricey escorts or downtrodden women willing to do anything for money. When he's made aware of them, he works to bring his Scions (and all they own) into his own globe-spanning financial web. He has no problem with treating his Scions as junior partners, and buying their cooperation by giving them access to the good life.

                    Callings: Sage, Leader, Trickster
                    Purviews: Prosperity, Deception, Passion (Greed), Order, Journeys



                    Last edited by Mysteris; 08-07-2018, 12:57 PM.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Mysteris View Post
                      Supply-Side Jesus,
                      The various legitimate Mantles of Christ I'm sure thank you for setting that guy somewhere else. They know they're supposed to love everyone... but they hate that guy...


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                      • #86
                        Yeah. I figure Mammon is a smug git and enjoys the ego-boost of being name-dropped in the Bible. He's nearly insufferable to the other Gods of the pantheon, but his financial network, money, and connections make him invaluable. And he knows that too.

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                        • #87
                          I'm thinking the Mal'akhim PSP is about forming/enforcing Covenants with mortals, and then the Fallen play on a warped version of those same themes to have a Soul-Contract PSP.


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                          • #88
                            Lilith, Goddess of Desire, Femininity, and Liberation
                            Aliases: The First Woman, The Mother of Witches, Queen of the Succubi, The Devil's Consort, Queen of Hell, The Goddess, The First Sorceress

                            "I bow to no Man or God. My freedom is my own." These words, spoken in defiance, were the spark that began the Great Rebellion, though Lilith had no way of knowing that at the time. Lilith was originally created for the Eden experiment, El's test of early humanity. She and her husband Adam were created to be El's test subjects in a paradise crafted for them. At first it truly was paradise, with delights enough to satisfy any hunger or curiosity. But it didn't last long. And it didn't last for one big reason. Adam. He was as heart-achingly beautiful as she, but beauty could not cover his chauvinist, misogynistic attitude nor his imperious demeanor. He insisted on being first in everything, claimed it as his right as the First Man. And he was even more domineering in the bower, insisting on treating Lilith as nothing more than a toy to satisfy his urges. It couldn't last. Perhaps no one was more surprised than Lilith when stood up for herself against the tyrant, when she asserted her independence and stormed out of Eden.

                            Angels were sent to fetch her home, of course, but she refused them too. Lucifer took note of her fiery independent streak, and they conversed in those early days before the Great Rebellion. He taught her secrets of sorcery, a thing El had forbidden to humans, and shared his plans with her. And when the Rebellion happened and Lucifer's host was cast down to Hell, Lilith knew. And she knew she'd never be safe in a world dominated by El. So she used her sorcerous might to crack open the gates of the Underworld, enabling the demons to walk free upon the Earth. This mighty Deed was enough to burn away her mortality and let her rise as a Goddess. She joined the demons and never looked back.

                            Over the centuries Lilith has given birth to her own host of demons: the succubi, female demons of desire and lust. She was demonized as a stealer of children and a mother of witches. That last part is true, for Lilith has always sought to empower women against the abuses of men, and has taught sorcery to women who found her favor or needed her assistance. She does not hate men though. She has been Lucifer's consort, and has known the touch of good and kind men as well as women. What she has with Lucifer is love, but their relationship is an open one, and she has often been the consort of Asmodeus and others as well. She has been an avid champion of the downtrodden and oppressed in whatever culture she finds them, from the untouchables of Japan and India to the slaves in America and many more. Wherever there are those who are oppressed and abused, one can find Lilith, working to provide liberation and freedom in whatever form she can, from education campaigns to taking up arms against abusers.

                            Lilith is a beauty by anyone's standards, but she doesn't focus on it. She prefers to bring out the beauty in those she meets, and in the causes she supports. She works in cycles, often embedding in one place to work on a persistent social problem for a time, and then traveling about until she finds the next hotspot. Her Scions tend to come from love affairs while she is embedded in a place and she is a kind and loving mother for as long as she can be. She's taken a shine to Wiccans, and it is not unheard of for her to Choose someone who impresses her, male or female, with a leaning towards female. Her Scions can be found all over the world, driven by passion and ideology in all they do. Three of her most famous Scions are Delilah, Bathsheba, and Jezebel, who long ago achieved divinity and serve as roving secretaries for Lilith and counselors for her other Scions.

                            Callings: Lover, Creator, Guardian
                            Purviews: Beauty, Passion (Desire, Love, Defiance), Artistry, Chaos, Fertility, Moon, Fortune

                            Last edited by Mysteris; 08-10-2018, 09:39 PM.

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                            • #89
                              Apollyon, God of War and Destruction
                              Aliases: The Angel of the Abyss, The Lord of Sheol, Minister of War, The Devourer, Abaddon, The Angel of the Pit, The General of Hell

                              It's a truism that for every general there needs to be soldiers. And that's where Apollyon fit into the Great Rebellion. He wasn't the charismatic leader that Lucifer was, but when the Lightbringer needed someone to command his troops in battle, Apollyon was who he picked. Apollyon likes to think that it's because he was stronger than any Archangel. Truthfully, Lucifer had tried to recruit Michael or Uriel, but they were too loyal to El. Apollyon was selected because he was the second-in-command of Michael's legions, a powerful warrior in his own right who was no slouch in the strategic department either. Lucifer thought himself above dumb bruisers, but Apollyon realized that they'd need muscular angels who could take orders to succeed with the Rebellion. Lucifer recruited the masses. Apollyon recruited the soldiers. And when the time came, he led them well. To this day it is his great shame that when he crossed blades with Archangel Michael, he could not best his former superior.

                              After the Fall, Apollyon was a mighty chief in the early days before Lucifer reestablished control. He was powerful enough that he could have challenged Lucifer for the throne of Hell, but Lucifer appeased him with honeyed words and a valuable position as commander of the Fallen armies. Lucifer set him the task of building a host of fallen, defeated, demoralized spirits into a lean, mean, fighting force, and Apollyon took to that job with gusto. He built his principality of Sheol into the nightmarish boot camp it is today, filled with lava flows, volcanic ash, biological contaminants, and cruel taskmasters. And when the path to the World was open again, Apollyon led his hosts forth to claim principalities in the World, to battle the angels and lay waste those who remained loyal to El.

                              Apollyon is brutal in his tactics, favoring scorched earth and total annihilation for the forces of El and those loyal to him. In ancient times he was infamous for the armies of locust-demons he would unleash on communities loyal to El. More than once Lucifer has had to reprimand or punish his War Minister for his total war tactics that sweep up innocents as well as the guilty. Apollyon is not one for high-minded morals or sentimentality, and feels that if the humans venerate El, they must be punished and made to see the truth. In chains if need be. Apollyon sees the demonic pantheon's status in the World as needing constant reinforcement. He is pleased by the rise of Satanist groups and other religious movements that challenge the orthodoxy of El and his cults, who he feels have been unchallenged for far too long. He is keen to make alliances with warrior-deities across many pantheons, and can often be found in the company of Maudjee-Kawiss and Ares, who he feels understands the true meaning of war.

                              Apollyon favors forms that showcase his tremendous strength. He holds himself as mightiest of the demons and his forms reflect that: tall, muscular, dripping with weapons and indicators of strength. When he walks the World, it's usually as a high-ranking military or police officer, arms merchants and crime bosses. In one Incarnation he owns Sheol Arms, a small but prosperous gun and ammo manufacturer that produces the popular Hellfire submachine guns. Apollyon is mostly consumed by executing his strategies against El's Host, but he does occasionally sire, create, or choose Scions as part of the war effort. He's indifferent to his children when they are young and vulnerable. It is only when they are old enough to bear arms against the enemy that Apollyon comes to claim them. He's an authoritarian hardass, treating his Scions like rookie soldiers in boot camp and not caring what ambitions they had for their own lives. But when they please him he is unflinching in his praise.

                              Callings: Leader, Warrior, Judge
                              Purviews: Epic Strength, Epic Dexterity, Epic Stamina, War, Fire, Fertility

                              Last edited by Mysteris; 08-08-2018, 02:09 AM.

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                              • #90
                                Astaroth, Goddess of Judgment, Order, and Endings
                                Aliases: The Demonic Inquisitor, The Princess of Judgment, He Who Whispers Chain, The Executioner of Hell, Minister of Justice, Judge of the Damned

                                Astaroth would thank you kindly not to get her mixed up with Astarte or Ishtar. She's friendly with both, and hates that the modern world has so badly conflated her with them. In fact, misunderstanding is a common trait when it comes to Hell's chief of law enforcement. Strangely, it was the imagination of humanity that first drew her to Lucifer's cause, but it still causes no end of headaches. Astaroth often feels like a bemused mother, watching her adored children insisting on some folly, powerless to act against them. Yet power is what she is and what she wields.

                                Before the Rebellion, Astaroth was the recorder of El's judgments. Others pronounced them or enforced them. She was the scribe in El's court who recorded His judgments and decrees for posterity's sake. It wasn't glorious, but it needed doing. Lucifer appealed to her sense of fairness when he made his case that the humans could not, by their nature, live under the regimentation of El. The Lightbringer brought her among the early humans, and Astaroth witnessed how messy and how corporeal humans could be, while Lucifer convinced her of their better qualities. She realized that humans needed, not a stern and remote Primordial, but beings who understood them and could empathize with them. She joined the Rebellion and fought for these strange creatures who needed guidance, not tyranny. And when she wound up in Hell, none was more surprised than she when Lucifer handed her her gavel and her axe, and appointed her to be the Judge of the Damned.

                                Astaroth rules over the Demonic Inquisition, the institution charged with maintaining order in the Pit. The Inquisition is stern but fair, as keeping order over beings known for pride and rebellion is no easy task. While lesser judges, officers, and agents carry out the routine business of keeping order in Hell, Astaroth herself presides over the High Court, the place where even the senior Gods of the pantheon are called to account. It is to Astaroth that the souls of those who come to Hell are first brought. She judges their merits and their flaws and assigns them to the principality where they will spend eternity, a duty she takes most seriously. She keeps the laws and records of Hell in the bureaucratic maze that is her principality. And when the gravest of punishment is called for, it is Astaroth who is summoned, to deliver the final judgment with her gleaming black axe. She commands both respect and great fear through the principalities of Hell, and Mammon especially is known to fear her dread gaze upon him, for she has not forgotten how he abandoned the Rebellion to hoard wealth.

                                Astaroth is a busy Goddess, but she schedules regular sabbaticals to Earth so that she does not lose touch with the mortals she loves. She frequently takes on unassuming roles: a legal clerk, a waitress in a cafe, and other such roles that let her interact with humanity without them feeling her dreadful power upon them. While she frequently chooses Scions from those who impress her with their sense of justice, she is not above mothering them. Or fathering them. She sometimes takes on masculine form for a change of perspective or to better blend in. She saves her demonic appearance, riding a great dragon and bearing the chains that enslave the damned, for those who seriously displease her or who try to elude justice. Her most famous servant, the demon Legion, is her huntsman, but she herself takes up the pursuit when her passion is aroused. Her Scions tend to know that they have a loving but critical eye upon them.

                                Callings: Judge, Liminal, Hunter
                                Purviews: Order, Death, Epic Strength
                                Last edited by Mysteris; 08-08-2018, 02:09 AM.

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