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  • #31
    Originally posted by aynie
    Every single ST and every single group in general is going to have a multitude of players that run all over the spectrum from devout to atheist. It is extremely wise to leave the idea of monotheism that the Abrahamic religions represens to the individual choice of a group/ST. Having run games with people who were devout believers and people who could give three cents about how I treated the Judeo-Christian faith system, I can safely say that it is not something that should ever have a blanket one-size-fits-all ruling. Someone who might be all right with the Saints in the pantheon might run up against someone who can't even conceive of anything beyond maybe God/Jesus/Holy Ghost.

    Use your judgement and understanding of the group and things will go a lot smoother.
    But as you once viciously snarled at me in the old forums, there are people who really do believe in a number of deities featured within Scion, and those belief systems are not always uniform either. So why should those gods be given any more of a pass?
    Last edited by The Revenge of TV Head; 11-04-2013, 01:46 AM.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by The Revenge of TV Head View Post

      But as you once viciously snarled at me in the old forums, there are people who really do believe in a number of deities featured within Scion, and those belief systems are not always uniform either. So why should those gods be given any more of a pass?
      I am only speaking from anecdotal experience here, but I have always noticed that regardless of the religion in question... regional minorities TEND to be a lot more forgiving and tolerant towards the beliefs of others.

      This is not to say that there is not a wealth of tolerance even from regional majorities, but regional majorities tend to express a lot of social pressure upon those regional minorities. This trend tends to happen regardless of who those regional majorities and minorities actually are (unless a specific doctrine encourages otherwise).

      We just happen to be in a situation where MOST of the pantheons represented in Scion are a regional minority.

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      • #33
        Of course, according to that particular line of logic, I see absolutely no reason why the central divine figure of Sikhism can't be featured in Scion.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by The Revenge of TV Head View Post
          Of course, according to that particular line of logic, I see absolutely no reason why the central divine figure of Sikhism can't be featured in Scion.
          I wish you the best of luck with that. Ultimately what gets included in the Scion line will be based upon what is most popular in the sales region, balanced against what is going to make the fewest people angry. Also mythical accuracy of course, but the latter is just my personal preference.

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          • #35
            Seeing as how we're dealing with a company that's the direct descendant (and essentially a continuation) of the company that produced Demon: the Fallen, I don't put much stock in the idea that they'd choose not to include something in Scion simply because "the Abrahamic community would be offended".


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            • #36
              Less "The Abrahamic Community" and more "The people who are going to be playing our games". It's not 1970, a lot of christians actually play RPGs. Hell, I know of at least one RPG set in a fantasy world that's all about getting closer to God.

              And anyone who would have a problem with Sikhism being true in an "All Myths are True" setting is no one I'd want to play with anyway.


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              • #37
                Demon: the Fallen wasn't written in the 1970s. I agree that there are Christians who play RPGs; after all, I am one. If the Scion​ developers are steering clear of touching on Abrahamic themes for fear of offending Abrahamic roleplayers, I'll be disappointed: it implies that they think we need to be coddled.

                My only request is that they don't present Abrahamic elements in a primarily negative light (such as saying that Christians and Jews are unknowingly worshipping a malevolent Titan). In particular, I do not​ expect them to present an "all-powerful 'Pantheon' of One"; I'm willing to go along with something more akin to what In Nomine does: the angels (read: Abrahamic counterpart to gods) know that their Creator God exists; but they can't prove it, because He is no longer in contact with them. So they operate more or less like any other Pantheon would while they strive to find out where He went.


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                • #38
                  That is very similar to what the Yazata do. They approach the situation with Henotheism, claiming Ahura Mazda is the ultimate power in their pantheon but otherwise an unknown. It is the 'lesser' gods that operate under Ahura Mazda that form the body of the pantheon as a whole.

                  So it is mechanically possible to stage the angels and archangels as 'Gods', but it goes back to begging the question of whether they acknowledge the existence of other 'Gods'. That's the real crux of the issue. If all myths are true, and their myths say that none of the other myths are true, then how do you resolve the paradox?

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                  • #39
                    Nanomachines, son.

                    Is it so hard to have someone bring it up to Yaweh and just have him reply with "Well why did you chucklefucks think the first rule I ever made was: Fuck those other gods, if there were no other gods? I mean. Seriously."


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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by The Revenge of TV Head View Post
                      Nanomachines, son.
                      Is it so hard to have someone bring it up to Yaweh and just have him reply with "Well why did you chucklefucks think the first rule I ever made was: Fuck those other gods, if there were no other gods? I mean. Seriously."
                      Apparently so! It has certainly been one of the predominant theological questions that have been floating around for centuries. Did he mean 'no other gods before me' because there were none? Or because he was advocating Henotheism? (rhetorical question).

                      Entire denominations have sprung up over similar issues over the years.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by The Revenge of TV Head View Post

                        But as you once viciously snarled at me in the old forums, there are people who really do believe in a number of deities featured within Scion, and those belief systems are not always uniform either. So why should those gods be given any more of a pass?
                        I snarled at many a person when they decided to treat the beliefs of anyone with less than a minimum of respect. I know a few folks who still follow the belief system of the Hellenistic faith and they adore Scion. Is it a game, ultimately? Sure. But you can respect the cultures and belief-systems within that game by trying to remain as accurate to the myths as possible; which is what I try to do.

                        Keeping accurate to the ideals of the Abrahamic religions might step on toes and cause drama if candor isn't done pre-game. I should know, it's happened personally in a game I ran. I didn't double-check with a player pre-game and when they discovered that in the Scion Universe that the Abrahamic religion was all a front for one particular Canaanite god who managed to slip by the rule to disappear --- not a happy post-game session. Another player of mine in a different game was extremely offended that the Archangels were worshipped on the same level as other gods because, to them, that was a huge no.

                        A third game, no one cared, and we've got a band of new demigod Scions actively using the Christian faith to build a new pantheon with Yahweh at the lead.

                        It is something that cannot be stretched to a one-size-fits all.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Aynie View Post
                          Keeping accurate to the ideals of the Abrahamic religions
                          I think a healthy suspension of disbelief is needed for Scion, after all there probably isn't a Titan-God war going on and it's a healthy assumption that various Gods/Goddesses are not siring children.

                          Not to mention anecdotal evidence isn't really strong to argue with, your players might have been offended but I'm a Methodist and I wouldn't be offended if they were included. Sure, I was a little (re: the smallest possible modicum of upset) that the Christian Faith was portrayed as worshiping a Titan in Scion 1e, but that didn't stop me from still loving the material.


                          Like Dataweaver said, I think it implies our faith needs to be coddled if they steer clear of including a Pantheon and as many said God/Yahweh doesn't even need to be in the Pantheon to alleviate all sorts of "But he's the strongest!" etc. He can just be entirely absent--and in his absence---Archangels have begun to fight the war against the Titans. Perhaps in the setting Abrahamic faith changed their beliefs to the Archangels in God's absence.


                          !

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Iry View Post
                            So it is mechanically possible to stage the angels and archangels as 'Gods', but it goes back to begging the question of whether they acknowledge the existence of other 'Gods'. That's the real crux of the issue. If all myths are true, and their myths say that none of the other myths are true, then how do you resolve the paradox?
                            That's trivial. Angels don't consider themselves to be gods, even when they're statistically equivalent to the beings in other Pantheons who call themselves “gods”. So why would they consider, say, the Aesir or the Akatsukami to be “gods”? Put another way: they don't deny that multiple Pantheons exist; they merely deny that said Pantheons are honest-to-goodness gods. They consider the other Pantheons to be beings like them who have delusions of grandeur, and who don't properly understand their place in the grand scheme of things. It wouldn't be the first time that Pantheons have had a difference of opinion.

                            And yes, it's also entirely reasonable to play it as the Abrahamic Pantheon advocating for henotheism instead of monotheism; I'd be OK with that, too. Frankly, I can think of several other Pantheons that could benefit from a henotheistic makeover: the Loa, Vedas, and Celestial Bureaucracy come to mind quite readily. It's a much more flexible framework, because it has room for each Pantheon to have a “Higher God”, but doesn't require it of any Pantheon.

                            Finally, let's say for the sake of argument that it's a necessary feature of the Abrahamic faiths that they deny that other supernatural forces exist at all. Why would that have any bearing on the existence of the other Pantheons? “all myths are true” means that positive statements about something’s existence are true, not that negative statements about something’s nonexistence are true. It affirms things; it does not deny them.

                            So we've got a Pantheistic solution, a Henotheistic solution, and even a Monotheistic solution. And that's without getting into the possibilities of “Yahweh is the last surviving member of the ancient Canaanite Pantheon”.


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                              That's trivial.
                              I'm afraid it is not as trivial as all that (hence why this conversation has spanned countless pages before and will continue to spawn them in the future). In fact, I showed your suggestions to a few very devout associates of mine and they were quite offended.

                              So many eggs broken in making this omelette apparently.

                              There are also some genuine mechanical issues with each of your approaches. Granted, some these are issues that may not be remotely present in the 2nd Edition of Scion.

                              If angels do not consider themselves to be gods, then are they mechanically gods? If so, then there is the mechanical acknowledgement that they are deluded gods. If not, can they make scions? If not, can they make entities of equivalent power that are reskinned and reflavored scions? Or are they just potentially benevolent Titanspawn?

                              What happens when Odin looks an Archangel right in the face and uses God's Honest to tell the truth? "I am a god." Do all the Archangels have some relic or PSP that grants them immunity to such absolute truths? If so, that could heavily inform the setting that they need a protection against such truths. If not, and the absolute truth fails? Then the rest of gods are not really gods?

                              I could seriously go on with similar questions and examples for about another thirty paragraphcs, but I hope you can see where it is going. :P
                              Last edited by Iry; 11-04-2013, 11:27 AM.

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                              • #45
                                The forum ate my reply. Short version: what offended them? The notion that God isn't talking to the angels, the notion that angels don’t consider high-Legend beings to be gods, the notion that supernatural beings who call themselves “gods” exist in the first place, or something else? On the bit about whether angels are in fact the same sort of beings as those who call themselves “gods”, saying that they are only makes them delusional if the so-called gods really are gods; and that’s a question that should ultimately be left up to the Storyteller to answer — or to avoid, as he sees fit. And if they are a different kind of being than the self-styled gods, that doesn't mean that they're Titanspawn: there are Immortals who are neither god nor titan; and it would be a simple matter to extend Immortals all the way up to Legend 12.


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