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Abrahamic Pantheon?

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Why “Spirit”?

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  • hellovg
    replied
    I remember a friend of mine had a pretty interesting idea, or at least I thought it was.

    His idea was that 'God' was the Greater Titan of Spirit. The 'gods' of the Titan consisted of Angels both in Paradise (their Overworld) and the Inferno (their underworld).

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    I can definitely get behind the Titan-based Abrahamics, so long as the notion of sympathetic Titans (possibly to the extent of being potential protagonists) gets more play.

    (Really, my core point here is that Abrahamics become much more viable protagonist fodder once Scion breaks away from its one-note “all player-characters are scions; all Titans and Titan-spawn are antagonists; and everyone else are Birthrights” stance. Yes, that mode of play should still be available and probably even presented as the default chronicle framework; but it shouldn’t be the only playstyle supported by the game.)
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 05-10-2014, 11:37 PM.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    It seems like there are a lot of different ideas and sub-ideas getting folded into this discussion:

    "Abrahamite" as a playable option standing shoulder to shoulder with the other pantheons (the Abrahamite option)
    "Abrahamite" as a playable option by turning back the clock and making them not monotheistic (he Canaanite option)
    "Abrahamite" as a the opposition, either as another Titan per se or as the primary opposition, replacing the Titans & Titanomachy (the Opposition option)

    Each of them lead to a completely different type of discussion. There is certainly some cross-over possible/probable between the two (all categorization is inexact, we want cores, we get peripheries) and there is definitely avenue to weigh the pros and cons of each side. It's all going to come down to personal preference in the end, but it certainly isn't necessarily a bad idea to keep discussing the obvious "elephant in the room" that Scion decided to avoid.

    Personally, I've used all but the Abrahamite option and variously combined them. In the current game, I'm going with the Canaanites as a pantheon in their own right and have left open the question of how/if/why Abrahamite monotheism is factored in. I definitely don't plan it as being the primary opposition and it's likely to be a non-issue unless the PCs choose to go that way or it makes dramatic sense to address it. (I can see where I could use it for Opposition, but I'm not sure I need or want to go there).

    In previous iterations, I've definitely taken the "Abrahamite" religions are Titan-inspired and they have definitely been a part of the Opposition. Never replacing the other Titans, but definitely on camera. Once as the primary opposition (a re-write of the Order of Divine Glory that was getting orders from two different Titans unknowingly - Aten and Yahweh/Logos, the Titan of (Absolute) Truth). Once as tangential opposition (same sort of thing, but the story was directed at dealing with the annunciation of another Titan altogether... sorta a reminder that "this war is bigger than merely the crap you are dealing with" and a few stern warnings to mind their own business from both their parents and the monotheists - the pantheons had other champions to deal with this issue in those games... compartmentalization of mission parameters).

    In both games, I made sure the Abrahamite-Titan-worshiper weren't completely unsympathetic. Sure most were intolerant assholes, but there were good guys and/or understandable guys and/or "there but for the grace of [the] god[s] go I" guys.

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  • Samudra
    replied
    Originally posted by Zakariya Ali Sher View Post

    I think Christianity is even less than 3% of India's total population, though it is the overwhelming majority in some states (Nagaland is about 90% Christian, and Mizoram is about 86%). Nonetheless, you are forgetting about a much bigger, more important group here: Islam. The Delhi Sultanate was established in 1206, and for centuries onward Muslims ruled much of the Indian subcontinent. At their height, the Mughals controlled almost all of India except a few Hindu kingdoms in the far south, as well as most of modern day Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Afghanistan and even Tajikistan (stopping only at the borders of Safavid Persia and the Khanate of Bukhara). Entire stretches of the Indian subcontinent are overwhelmingly Muslim majority, including the parts that were broken off to form Pakistan and Bangladesh, and modern India still has a huge Muslim minority (only about 15% of the total population, but still accounting for some 180 million+ people, making it the world's largest Muslim minority and one of the largest Muslim populations overall; again it varies by state so about 25% of West Bengal is Muslim, 37% of Punjab is Muslim, and nearly 30% of Assam is Muslim).

    I think its safe to say that the Deva would have had plenty of encounters with the Abrahamic Pantheon. Far more so than the Chinese or Japanese gods. Also, bear in mind that China, India and Japan don't account for all of Asia either. Certainly the Deva may have been represented in parts of Central and Southeast Asia thanks to the spread of Hinduism and later Buddhism, but many smaller, local Pantheons could just as easily have been swallowed up by the Abrahamic Pantheon. I'm thinking of the Philippines and East Timor, which are both overwhelmingly Catholic, but also in Indonesia (the world's largest Muslim nation, though the eastern half of Indonesia is mostly Catholic too), Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, southern Thailand (Pattani), western Burma (Rakhine state) and even possibly in the Mekong delta (the Cham Kingdom) and the former South Vietnam. South Korea too has a large Christian minority, and indeed Christians have been well placed in the political and business communities; I believe their current President is Christian.
    It was 2.9% at the last census I believe, though I am not sure. And as for the Muslims, yes, the Delhi Sultanate and then the Mughals ruled India for a long, prosperous time. The Taj Mahal is proof of that. My point was that despite being under Abrahamic rule for some eight centuries, the population is still 80% Hindu. Less than one-fifth of the population has converted after nearly a millenium. I also agree that the Deva would have had far more interaction with the Abrahamic Pantheon than the other two, I just say that they do not consider them a threat to their own supremacy.

    Also, I apologize if I gave off the wrong impression. Those three definitely do not represent all of Asia, and I never meant to even imply this. I simply noted that their are certain Pantheons that would be good candidates for a Scion setting where the Abrahamics were the opposition, which is the suggestion that started this whole part of the thread, and that there are some Pantheons that would not really care about fighting the Abrahamics because they don't see them as a threat.

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  • Zakariya Ali Sher
    replied
    Originally posted by Samudra View Post
    In between the Boxer Rebellion and Tokugawa Shogunate, the Shen and Kami probably aren't too worried, and even after nearly two centuries of colonization India has a less than 3 % Christian population, so I don't think the Deva are losing any sleep over it either.

    There is also the matter of traditional arrogance that the Big Three of Asia have towards foreigners in general. The whole 'Barbarians Gaijin Firangi' thing. They most likely believe the Abrahamic God to be a fairly unimportant individual compared to the shining glory of Amaterasu or the divine presence of the Jade Emperor or the all encompassing majesty of the Trimurti. Suffice to say these three Pantheons have fairly healthy egos.

    You could rule that in their arrogance they don't even notice until the Abrahamic God turns up and takes over their domains, but short of that actually happening they will consider Him a minor nuisance at best them, no matter how nice they are about it.
    I think Christianity is even less than 3% of India's total population, though it is the overwhelming majority in some states (Nagaland is about 90% Christian, and Mizoram is about 86%). Nonetheless, you are forgetting about a much bigger, more important group here: Islam. The Delhi Sultanate was established in 1206, and for centuries onward Muslims ruled much of the Indian subcontinent. At their height, the Mughals controlled almost all of India except a few Hindu kingdoms in the far south, as well as most of modern day Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Afghanistan and even Tajikistan (stopping only at the borders of Safavid Persia and the Khanate of Bukhara). Entire stretches of the Indian subcontinent are overwhelmingly Muslim majority, including the parts that were broken off to form Pakistan and Bangladesh, and modern India still has a huge Muslim minority (only about 15% of the total population, but still accounting for some 180 million+ people, making it the world's largest Muslim minority and one of the largest Muslim populations overall; again it varies by state so about 25% of West Bengal is Muslim, 37% of Punjab is Muslim, and nearly 30% of Assam is Muslim).

    I think its safe to say that the Deva would have had plenty of encounters with the Abrahamic Pantheon. Far more so than the Chinese or Japanese gods. Also, bear in mind that China, India and Japan don't account for all of Asia either. Certainly the Deva may have been represented in parts of Central and Southeast Asia thanks to the spread of Hinduism and later Buddhism, but many smaller, local Pantheons could just as easily have been swallowed up by the Abrahamic Pantheon. I'm thinking of the Philippines and East Timor, which are both overwhelmingly Catholic, but also in Indonesia (the world's largest Muslim nation, though the eastern half of Indonesia is mostly Catholic too), Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, southern Thailand (Pattani), western Burma (Rakhine state) and even possibly in the Mekong delta (the Cham Kingdom) and the former South Vietnam. South Korea too has a large Christian minority, and indeed Christians have been well placed in the political and business communities; I believe their current President is Christian.

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  • Jen
    replied
    Originally posted by TwitchTheRat View Post
    I'm not making any kind of statement about whether or not Christians are good or bad. But they have made many attempts to establish a presence in eastern cultures, and predominantly failed. I agree with Samudra. Most eastern religions do not care any more than they would care about any other Pantheon attempting to encroach on their territory.
    Well, Philippines is the third largest Catholic countries in the world so those Christian don't fail so bad IMO.

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  • Wickedgrail
    replied
    Originally posted by Samudra View Post

    You could rule that in their arrogance they don't even notice until the Abrahamic God turns up and takes over their domains, but short of that actually happening they will consider Him a minor nuisance at best them, no matter how nice they are about it.
    Fair enough.

    Originally posted by Samudra View Post
    Also, am I the only one who finds the date of the resurrection of this thread a striking coincidence?
    Haha, it wasn't on purpose. I just thought about it when I read what 2e will be about.

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  • Samudra
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    I don't think they could care less. Because Chinese people start becoming Christians which surely happen in the other two religions. So, they would just fight against Aten not to be forgotten as the other pantheons.
    In between the Boxer Rebellion and Tokugawa Shogunate, the Shen and Kami probably aren't too worried, and even after nearly two centuries of colonization India has a less than 3 % Christian population, so I don't think the Deva are losing any sleep over it either.

    There is also the matter of traditional arrogance that the Big Three of Asia have towards foreigners in general. The whole 'Barbarians Gaijin Firangi' thing. They most likely believe the Abrahamic God to be a fairly unimportant individual compared to the shining glory of Amaterasu or the divine presence of the Jade Emperor or the all encompassing majesty of the Trimurti. Suffice to say these three Pantheons have fairly healthy egos.

    You could rule that in their arrogance they don't even notice until the Abrahamic God turns up and takes over their domains, but short of that actually happening they will consider Him a minor nuisance at best them, no matter how nice they are about it.

    Also, am I the only one who finds the date of the resurrection of this thread a striking coincidence?
    Last edited by Samudra; 04-20-2014, 02:23 PM.

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  • TwitchTheRat
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    I don't think they could care less. Because Chinese people start becoming Christians which surely happen in the other two religions. So, they would just fight against Aten not to be forgotten as the other pantheons.
    I'm not making any kind of statement about whether or not Christians are good or bad. But they have made many attempts to establish a presence in eastern cultures, and predominantly failed. I agree with Samudra. Most eastern religions do not care any more than they would care about any other Pantheon attempting to encroach on their territory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickedgrail
    replied
    I don't think they could care less. Because Chinese people start becoming Christians which surely happen in the other two religions. So, they would just fight against Aten not to be forgotten as the other pantheons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Samudra
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    Abrahamic religion replaced the ancient Gods. So, a game where ancient Gods are the good guys, it's only obvious to make the one God their issues. Titans and Gods should fight against the one God before trying to "kill" each other...
    This brings up a slight problem: It will lead to a clear divide between Pantheons like the Tuatha and Dodekatheon who have been affected by the Abrahamic God and those like the Deva, Kami and Shen that could not care less. What would the latter be doing in this cosmology?

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  • Wickedgrail
    replied
    Originally posted by MrApophenia View Post

    the White Wolf writers essentially wrote a campaign where the End Boss is the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. Which my group would totally eat up, but I can see how that maybe wouldn't play so well at every table.
    We're talking about a game where ancient myths are like the good guys and the titans the bad guys. While I disagree with inserting Aten in the Titan category, Abrahamic religion replaced the ancient Gods. So, a game where ancient Gods are the good guys, it's only obvious to make the one God their issues. Titans and Gods should fight against the one God before trying to "kill" each other...
    If one's belief is too strong to accept a game like that, then one should not play. It's like any other games that might deal with any kind of discrimination. You only play when you feel comfortable.

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  • MrApophenia
    replied
    Originally posted by JackalopeVegas View Post
    Aten, in 1e, was a total dick who believed completely in his monotheistic dogma. To make him a "Good Titan" would mean that he'll have to get a total psychological redo on his personality.
    Absolutely. But then, I figure how to handle the character - good or evil, antagonist or not - is best left to the individual GM and their judgement of what their players are up for. Personally, and for the purposes of my own hypothetical game if I ever get to run it, I'd plan to leave Aten entirely as written in 1E. He's a fairly decent representation of the God of the Old Testament, and when you get right down to it, the White Wolf writers essentially wrote a campaign where the End Boss is the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. Which my group would totally eat up, but I can see how that maybe wouldn't play so well at every table.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    The prophecy said "son" so Athena and her daddy are all good. Now if Metis is raising Athena's twin brother in Zeus's head, he might have a problem.

    Yahweh is tricky to insert into the Canaanite pantheon. Since he conflated with El so much, you can use it as an alias of El. But El definitely gave up the mantle of king. A bunch of times, but lastly to Ba'al. So he's not going to be the big kahuna unless you want to postulate a post-myth shift in power. Which they did for the Celestial Bureaucracy, so maybe not out of line.

    Also, there is some VERY recent archaeology to back this up. Yahweh is depicted as being alongside but subservient to Ba'al in a wall painting with a Hebrew inscription in a Jewish fort in the Sinai from 9th century BC. (Which is AFTER the time it became a big no no to depict Yahweh in any way. Bad travelers! Bad!). BTW, Asherah is playing harp in the background. So you can just go with that and manufacture a story where Yahweh does to Ba'al what Ba'al sorta did to El, Yamm and Mot. (And Zeus did to Chronos who did it to Ouranous, what Tarhun did to his pa, etc.)

    I just go with it and have had Yahweh give up the "being part of the pantheon" for ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER and become the Primary Avatar of a Greater Titan. In my case the Titan of Truth (associated with the Justice Purview). Good Titan is a relative word to me. Yahweh hasn't come across as good. Other aspects of Truth have had more traction, though, like Ma'at.

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