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  • #46
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    The forum ate my reply.
    Sorry the forum ate your post

    Specifically? They thought it was a bit blasphemous to suggest that the angels actually cannot hear the word of god, or that the faithful cannot hear the word of god. Also that there was anyone or anything that could rival the angels in power (save perhaps other fallen angels). I did warn you that they were pretty devout.

    Now, I notice you say that it is the kind of question that should ultimately be left up to the Storyteller to answer -- or to avoid. I think you and I are in complete agreement. I happily leave that question up to be judged on a case by case basis from one group to the next.

    But it probably should not be written out as an actual pantheon to be used in the core Scion books. Maybe as a supplement named Monotheism that goes into the various versions of monotheism and how to handle those settings, or integrate them into a regular Scion game?

    I might buy that. But I don't want it in Core.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      On the bit about whether angels are in fact the same sort of beings as those who call themselves “gods”, saying that they are only makes them delusional if the so-called gods really are gods; and that’s a question that should ultimately be left up to the Storyteller to answer — or to avoid, as he sees fit.
      I'm confused on this part of your reply. Are you suggesting that if the Abrahamic pantheons are included in core, then the question of if the other pantheons are actually gods is a ST-by-ST basis? Because the entire premise of the game-line itself is the Gods are real, that their myths are real, and divinity is something that you can pass down to a kid and that kid can become a God.

      That should not be a case-by-case basis idea and is exactly why the Abrahamic pantheons should be not included within the core-game itself because once they're in there, the question of true divinity and what qualifies as a god becomes really muddled really fast.

      If that's not what you were implying, then I apologize and we can blame a overly-large dosage of Dayquil and cough drops for my interpretation.

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      • #48
        The one thing that's clear is that if you add Monotheism to the equation (sorry, OtherGuy, but I'm going with a traditional, Western definition of monotheism) then things get confusing and fast. You have to make compromises and shuffle things around and it opens a lot of questions about "what is a God" and "are Gods real?" and just.. all sorts of messy, icky questions. Without monotheism, that doesn't come up nearly as much.

        So what's the benefit vs cost ratio? What benefit do you get from adding the ability to play a Scion of Jesus in a band with Scions of Thor, Morrigan, Susano-O and Ra? Is that benefit worth all the issues, anger, questions and compromises that have to be made to allow it? Considering my own experiences here in the American South, I would say that it isn't worth it. Getting Christianity involved in a game of "Mythology" is a FAST way to get into a bunch of very heated arguments.


        I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

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        • #49
          Here, I think, is the crux of the argument: would the addition of an Abrahamic pantheon, with all that it entails, add more to the gameline as a whole than whatever else the developers who would otherwise have been making this Abrahamic pantheon could have been working on. If the developers who were writing up Michael and Gabriel and Jesus and whatnot, and causing potential controversy and issues for players could instead have been making, for example, an uncontroversial and still awesome polynesian pantheon that wouldn't otherwise have been included, go with the ridiculous jade-wielding seafarers. please.


          Games are a way for us to explore what it means to be human, or inhuman, as the case may be. Let's all have a good time playing them.

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          • #50
            I really do think any instances of using Abrahamic faiths as a pantheon should be done as a side supplement, if at all, largely because I'd rather the game line not become completely hijacked by Jesus

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Iry View Post
              Specifically? They thought it was a bit blasphemous to suggest that the angels actually cannot hear the word of god, or that the faithful cannot hear the word of god. Also that there was anyone or anything that could rival the angels in power (save perhaps other fallen angels). I did warn you that they were pretty devout.
              Given that they'd have a problem with angels not having a significant edge over everyone else, I suspect that they'd have at least as much of a problem with the notion that God doesn't have any influence in the setting. If your primary goal is to not offend them, your only option is to give them angels that are more powerful than the gods. Which is why I don't think that the principle of least offense makes any sense; the decision of how to handle the Abrahamic faiths should be primarily based on other factors, such as which option provides the most interesting story options.

              Originally posted by Iry View Post
              But it probably should not be written out as an actual pantheon to be used in the core Scion books. Maybe as a supplement named Monotheism that goes into the various versions of monotheism and how to handle those settings, or integrate them into a regular Scion game?
              Right. To clarify, I'm not arguing for it to be included in the core book; I'd be fine with the Abrahamic faiths being handled in a supplement designed to be purchased by those interested in the subject and ignored by those who aren't. I'd also be OK with the Abrahamic faiths being addressed in a supplement dedicated to, say, religions originating in the Middle East. What I'd want in the core book would be a paragraph or so that outlines the basics on how Scion intends to handle them, on which an appropriate supplement would then expand.

              More generally though, I'd like the notion of the “Higher God” (a being who is to the gods of a given Pantheon as those gods are to men — say, something that's roughly analogous to a Greater Titan in much the same way that lesser Titans are roughly analogous to gods) to be included in the core book — not so much for the purpose of implementing Abrahamic faiths as for handling any mythology that has one Divine Being (or even two or three) who operates on a whole different level than the rest of the Pantheon. I've mentioned the Loa before in this context; in their case, much of the issue comes from the fact that Voudoun and Satiera (sp?) are hybrids of Christian and native African mythologies. But you also get the issue with the likes of Hindu mythology (where you have three “head gods”, and everyone else is a manifestation of one of those three) and what little I know of the Chinese mythology on which the Celestial Bureaucracy is based. And as OtherGuy pointed out, the notion of the Pantheon as described in the existing edition of Scion is primarily a European thing; even regions as close as Africa include mythologies that don't fit neatly into that paradigm. And at the other end of the scale — and for similar reasons — I'd like to see the notion of Hero-level characters who don’t have Divine heritage, but who acquired Legend through other means (e.g., the patronage, as opposed to parentage, of a Higher God).


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              • #52
                If it were me, I'd do it like this:

                God is God and the head of the Pantheon. The other pantheons ignore His existence, but the faithful can hear Him just fine. But since he rarely takes corporeal form or directly intercedes, no one outside of the pantheon is sure if He's a myth or how powerful He really is. (In turn, it's setting mystery left to the ST.)

                Place Jesus and Muhammed as the functioning "heads" of the pantheon. (Not the actual, as that is God.) As the most famous prophets of their respective religions, their Legend has simply grown above the rest of the pantheon, but below God. I don't know enough about Judaism to posit an acceptable candidate here. (One of the Archangels? Enoch the patriarch?) In any case, they aren't gods or worshiped directly, just really, really revered.

                Then from there, cascade Mary, Joseph, Angels, Saints and other important personages based on their relative importance. Their Legend is more of a reflection their legends and less on divine ichor. Again, not gods in any sense (save mechanically for Scion rules purposes.) They just happen to be really revered for the Holy beings they are. The other pantheons call everyone from God on down, "gods," but the Abrahamic pantheon as a whole is offended by the characterization, assuming they pay attention in the first place.

                The only "true" God in the pantheon is God. The only being in the pantheon that ever Sired a child proper is God, in the form of Jesus. (Which fits into Scion just fine.) Or possibly Jesus is not the son of God, just a really important prophet. It's ultimately irrelevant, because Jesus is still a well known Legend 10+ being. Anyone who asks anyone in the pantheon for the truth gets the axiom "We're all the children of God" in reply. The other Legendary beings in the pantheon adopted their Scions. That in turn gave rise to the Saints.

                Why some of the Legendary beings in the Abrahamic Pantheon didin't need to be directly Sired by God is a setting mystery. Were they Scions adopted from other Pantheons? Does God touch mortal beings, infuse them with divine ichor directly, and guide the other beings in the pantheon to take care of the nascent Scion? Or were they actual divine Scions of God, but the lesser members of the pantheon "adopt" as necessary? It could be a complete mystery.

                Or make it their Pantheon Purview. Much like the Aesir give their divine ichor to empower people and creatures, perhaps Legendary beings of the Abrahamic Pantheon can pass on God's touch (and therefore divine ichor) much more directly. This could be reflected in holy sites, relics, and the like. Maybe they take their own Legend and imbue that.

                As for their Titan-spawn, we have the fallen angels, demons, and the like. The "gods" that Christianity co-opted as demons, could actually be an early Titan spawn tactic designed to turn the other pantheons against the nascent Abrahamic Pantheon. That is to say, certain Titan spawn (or Titan Avatars) masqueraded as the other pantheons' gods and messed with the the younger pantheon. It didn't work and they were eventually found to be Titan spawn/Avatars, but it still made for difficult relations between pantheons.

                Just some thoughts.

                -Ariketh

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ariketh View Post
                  Place Jesus and Muhammed as the functioning "heads" of the pantheon.
                  This is going to sound intensely blasphemous, but I really do not intend it to be so. I do not think the likes of Jesus or Muhammed would rank higher than Legend 4 or Legend 5 at the absolute most. I certainly think they may have had some serious divine power watching over them and helping them accomplish their goals, but either as Scions or Avatars their personal accomplishments do not rank very high on the legend scale by the mechanics of the game.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Iry View Post
                    This is going to sound intensely blasphemous, but I really do not intend it to be so. I do not think the likes of Jesus or Muhammed would rank higher than Legend 4 or Legend 5 at the absolute most. I certainly think they may have had some serious divine power watching over them and helping them accomplish their goals, but either as Scions or Avatars their personal accomplishments do not rank very high on the legend scale by the mechanics of the game.
                    Haha, not blasphemous at all. This isn't a church and we're having an open discussion environment, you bring up good points.


                    That's why, I think anyway, the hypothetical "Pantheon" would just be a choir of Archangels that are fighting the Titans in the absence of their creator, God



                    !

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                    • #55
                      Wasn't there a Canaanite fan pantheon that was all written out and nice and edited? It's the origin religion so does that count as an abrahamic pantheon?

                      Aside from that, if I were to create one more like what the abrahamic religions look like today, I would have, as others have stated, it pretty much comprised of angels. In fact I'd prolly make them all angels even each of the trinity, kind of in the same vain as how they are laid out in the His Dark Materials trilogy.

                      It shouldn't be all to hard really, each named angel has a purview in abrahamic lore. They have a "heaven" type place for the gods (they call themselves angels instead of gods with the exception of a handful of them (the trinity and maybe a few others)

                      For titans I can see a few different Ideas: Either demons/fallen angels are the titans (and there fore hate the gods for the same reason that other titans do) or the titans could be only demons with "fallen" angels just as another faction of gods similar to the technically two yet not Scandinavian pantheons. I'd prolly lean more in favor of the second one because that would allow for more intricacy of plot in that two factions who usually don't get along, sometimes might work together. Kind of like having loki as a god and how he and his scions even provide a good amount of drama.

                      the lore even has tales of the offspring of the gods (read angels). I don't know, the more I think about it the more I actually want to create it.



                      Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                      • #56
                        Christian epics like the Milton/Jeruselam duology by William Blake, Finnegans Wake by James Joyce, and Paradise Lost by Milton seem like excellent places to draw from for a nominally Christian pantheon. What do others think?


                        Thinking as I do that the Creator of this World is a very Cruel Being & being a Worshipper of Christ, I cannot help saying: "the Son, O how unlike the Father!" First God Almighty comes with a Thump on the Head. Then Jesus Christ comes with a balm to heal it. - William Blake, Christian mystic and visionary

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Pilgrim View Post
                          Christian epics like the Milton/Jeruselam duology by William Blake, Finnegans Wake by James Joyce, and Paradise Lost by Milton seem like excellent places to draw from for a nominally Christian pantheon. What do others think?
                          I'm just going to sit here and be disappointed on behalf of one Dante Alighieri.


                          Games are a way for us to explore what it means to be human, or inhuman, as the case may be. Let's all have a good time playing them.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by guitarsniper View Post
                            I'm just going to sit here and be disappointed on behalf of one Dante Alighieri.
                            To be fair, if Dante knew of this thread and the whole discussion behind it, he would write a new canto just to put us in the Inferno so we can get what we deserve. I wonder what kind of punishment is reserved for roleplayers...


                            Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                            I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                            This is what I'm working on

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                            • #59
                              Are the devs still going with the idea of presenting multiple possible settings in Scion: Hero? If they go that route, it seems like they could have their cake and eat it to, on this question. Have one setting with an Abrahamic pantheon (one that will presumably be published in another supplement) and the rest without.

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                              • #60
                                I seriously hope they do NOT include the Abrahamic faith as a pantheon. It's bad enough that many myths have been bastardized by the monotheists, but to include it in the end means to include the view point of the "faithful". The monotheists have a long history of intolerance to differing beliefs, even within their own faiths. The end results are people pissed/offended/etc. because they don't feel G-D is almighty enough, too almighty, inaccurately portrayed, too heavy handed, to separation of church and game.

                                Please, please, please, by the gods, do not make Scion the Sunday Schooling. Just my two cents.

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