Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ragnarok: Odin's Fault?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ragnarok: Odin's Fault?




    So I was watching some of those videos and noticed a comment that posed the question on whether or not Ragnarok was a self fulfilling prophecy, brought on by the fact that some of the Norse gods weren't particularly welcoming to those whom they considered a threat. Case and point being Loki's children, who Odin pretty much exiled in one form or another.

    All Fenrir wanted was to earn the pantheon's respect, and instead they were so terrified of him that they decided to bind him in (almost) unbreakable thread. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but that would make me want to murder some people, too, if I spent thousands of years in prison just because I was big and strong.


    Jormagandr isn't treated much better, as Odin just picks up the baby serpent and lobs him into the ocean. What the hell, man? That snake didn't do anything to you!


    And, of course, Hel, being moved to the bleakest location the pantheon had to offer. Sure, she became it's queen, but it's still the place where Odin sends all the souls who weren't worthy of entering Valhalla.


    A lot of the enemies involved in Ragnarok don't just want to kill or punish the gods, but they seem to have valid reasons for doing so. They've all been mistreated at the hands of the pantheon for being perceived as a threat.


    And as for Loki, there was another comment who pointed out the fact that Odin is a hypocrite, and that many of the things Loki is reviled and chastised for are looked upon with praise and admiration within Odin. Out of everybody in the pantheon, Loki is the one who bares the closest resemblance to Odin in terms of behavior and personality. Yet one of them is looked upon with scorn, and the other is showered in praise.


    So does anybody else think that the events of Ragnarok could have been avoided if the gods weren't so callous towards the Nine Realms?
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-13-2018, 02:00 PM.

  • #2
    Yeah it could have easily been the case. Ragnarok isn't so much of an end as it is a rebirth. A redressing of all the crimes the Aesir committed. Well some of them anyway. Vidar and Balder and a few others are prophesied to survive Ragnarok, because well they were largely uninvolved with matters and kept to themselves away from what the rest of the Aesir did. What's also interesting is how many of the Aesir famous weapons were created by the actions commited by Loki. Thor's famous hammer came about because of a bet Loki made with the dwarves if I recall my mythology correctly. Again if I'm wrong on some of this please someone correct me. Norse myths and such aren't my area of expertise. I'm more into the Greek and Japanese myths and such.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, it's always seemed to me that there was a dimension of tragic irony to Ragnarök. I'm not sure if it's an intentional part of the original stories or just something that appears when I look on them with modern eyes, but it sure does look like the aesir created their own worst problems because they were too scared to deal with them like adults.

      Then again, prophecy in the Norse world does seem to be inescapable. If they had treated Fenrir with respect, perhaps Ragnarök could have been avoided - or perhaps he would have fallen prey to some deception and unwittingly slain Odin a thousand years before he otherwise would have. We don't know, and I think that's kind of the point. Stories about fate are often like that, asking us one of the most fundamental human questions; what if I had acted differently?

      Comment


      • #4
        Well we know at one point in the Norse Legends the Aesir warred with the Vanir and that part of a peace deal the Aesir accepted both Freya and her brother into their ranks as full members. So who knows. Most of the early Norse legends are lost to antiquity itself so we just plain don't know.

        Comment


        • #5
          "We meet destiny on the road we take to avoid it." I don't know where that quote comes from but it described Odin's situation to a T. Ragnarok seems to be as much about Aesir comeuppance as it is about rebirth of the world. Of course the Aesir aren't the only ones who get beat with the karma stick, look at Kronus, he could have avoided all that Titanomachy business by just putting his son on the throne and stepping down into retirement like Oceanus. If I got a prophecy that said Your child will overthrow you" I'd head that off by handing the drown over as soon as he came fo age.

          Comment


          • #6
            Which, depending on how you read it, could still be interpreted as "your son overthrows you" , because the prophecies don't generally say it will be a violent happening. Even if you abdicate, you're still off the throne.

            Comment


            • #7
              A lot of what I've read seems to pretty much spell out that the Aesir kind of brought this one on themselves. It's especially egregious in Odin's case, since his drinking from the Well was supposed to give him wisdom that, in some cases, has been interpreted as a knowledge of Fate and the events that lead to Ragnarok, but in the moment he just kind of forgot all of that and did selfish, violent or manipulative things. Like that time he robbed a Dwarf for money to pay a blood price. He had plenty of other ways to pay something besides gold - a gift from the gods, a flagon of the poet's mead, all kinds of things - but he decided he'd just put gold first, even if he had to steal it.

              ​Loki was in on that one, but he only suggested the robbery, the head of the pantheon doesn't get off because the most damning part of it was somebody else's idea.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                Which, depending on how you read it, could still be interpreted as "your son overthrows you" , because the prophecies don't generally say it will be a violent happening. Even if you abdicate, you're still off the throne.
                Which yeah that is one interesting way to look at that indeed. I find it kind of interesting that in the previous edition, I don't know if it' correct to the legend or not but Balder set himself up to try and break the Aesir's doom and such. However we saw how that one turned out.Now Feyr's death on the other hand doesn't seem to be born out of spite or anything like that. His death is just plain bad luck, that he would die Sutur's hands, of which included his sword being used against him.

                As for Odin and such, interestingly enough in some of the old Germanic texts they don't call him Odin. He's known as Wodan, the Devourer. Yeah not the All-Father but The Devourer. That's quite an interesting name change there going on.
                Last edited by Sessha; 05-01-2018, 06:25 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wodan is just the Germanic name of Odin. The meaning of the name doesn't change.

                  And... which source do you quote for "devourer"? Never heard of that, eventhough he has a lot of names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin
                  Last edited by BlackLotos; 05-01-2018, 06:46 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    According to a list of "Asgardian Dick Moves" there was also a scene in which Thor kicks a dwarf into a fire during Baldr's funeral just because he was standing in front of him!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      According to a list of "Asgardian Dick Moves" there was also a scene in which Thor kicks a dwarf into a fire during Baldr's funeral just because he was standing in front of him!
                      ​Yeah, and he had to be physically restrained from attacking a giantess who just came down to help push the boat out. By that point in his life the dude had gotten really sour.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CreepyShutIn View Post

                        ​Yeah, and he had to be physically restrained from attacking a giantess who just came down to help push the boat out. By that point in his life the dude had gotten really sour.


                        Then there's the story of when Loki, Odin and Thor accidentally kill the prince (king? I forgot) of the dwarves while they were in the form of an otter. When the dwarves respond by taking Thor and Odin prisoner (how the hell did they accomplish this?), Loki attempts to buy their freedom by filling the otter pelt with gold. What the dwarves didn't realize is that the gold is cursed and inflames their greed to the point the entire clan slaughters itself in a jealous rage.


                        Or how about the story of Sleipnir, in which the gods get pissed off at the fact that *gasp* they might actually have to honor an agreement towards a Jotun who's building them a giant wall around their fortress and is actually meeting the deadline they set for him. Baring in mind that this is being done by one jotun, rather than an entire construction crew. But fuck that, we're not giving away our women to this obviously hard working individual who seems like he would be able to provide for her. Loki, go fix this 'problem' you got us into!

                        Months later and not only do they have a free wall, but Odin receives the greatest horse in the universe as a special bonus.


                        Yeah, I'm starting to think the Titans have every reason to be pissed off...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                          According to a list of "Asgardian Dick Moves" there was also a scene in which Thor kicks a dwarf into a fire during Baldr's funeral just because he was standing in front of him!
                          To Thor’s defense, it was Baldr’s funeral afterall. When The Guy Everybody Likes just drops dead like that, you get strong reactions from people. (Well okay, kicking people into fires is dickish, but still)


                          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                            Then there's the story of when Loki, Odin and Thor accidentally kill the prince (king? I forgot) of the dwarves while they were in the form of an otter. When the dwarves respond by taking Thor and Odin prisoner (how the hell did they accomplish this?), Loki attempts to buy their freedom by filling the otter pelt with gold. What the dwarves didn't realize is that the gold is cursed and inflames their greed to the point the entire clan slaughters itself in a jealous rage.


                            Or how about the story of Sleipnir, in which the gods get pissed off at the fact that *gasp* they might actually have to honor an agreement towards a Jotun who's building them a giant wall around their fortress and is actually meeting the deadline they set for him. Baring in mind that this is being done by one jotun, rather than an entire construction crew. But fuck that, we're not giving away our women to this obviously hard working individual who seems like he would be able to provide for her. Loki, go fix this 'problem' you got us into!

                            Months later and not only do they have a free wall, but Odin receives the greatest horse in the universe as a special bonus.


                            Yeah, I'm starting to think the Titans have every reason to be pissed off...
                            What I heard in Sleipnir’s cade, the unnamed builder first deceived the aesir by hiding his nature as hrimthur. And asked not just for Freya (who is hardly “just a woman”) but the sun and the moon. And the aesir didn’t want to accept a deal like that, until Loki talked them to it. So I’d say this one’s on Loki’s fault.


                            EDIT: To avoid going beyond double post - last time I heard, the Aesir had Fatalism and Audacity as their virtues. Maybe Odin thought “Well, if Loki’s gonna kill us all, might as well give him a good reason to, other than just accidentally massacring us in a drunken fistfight or something, because that’ll be just silly” ?
                            Last edited by 21C Hermit; 05-01-2018, 08:56 AM.


                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The Aesir generally fare better than some other pantheons, but they have this issue where Those Three Guys can't keep their mouth shut, their hands still and generally believe themselves better and smarter than anyone (which is an Aesir thing, but others tend to behave better). There certainly is a degree to which some of their troubles are their own fault

                              One of the things I loved the most about Neil Gaiman's book about the Norse Myths, is how he plays up how Thor, Loki and even Odin can get dickish and arrogant and that Freya is always this close from giving up and smack them. It was a fun read.
                              Last edited by Cinder; 05-01-2018, 09:49 AM.


                              Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                              I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                              This is what I'm working on

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X