Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Roll Away Defensive Stunt Is Problimatic For the Future of Scion 2nd

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Roll Away Defensive Stunt Is Problimatic For the Future of Scion 2nd

    Bold Statement, But I will break down why this option is damaging to the future of the game. I mentioned this to Neall and he suggested I made a post about it. (Likely to get other people's opinions)

    To start, I'll define interpretation of how it works. To me, it seems that if you are able to roll enough successes on your defense roll then you are able to avoid any close range (or max band ranged attack) purely by matching a characters composure. This leads me to the number 1 issue with this.

    1v1 Encounters (or any encounter where there is a single protagonist) Duels are cool. lol

    1. Any attacker (but mainly close ranged fighters) will be required to heavily invest in composure or be prepared to deal with a secondary means of missing their attacks in 1v1 scenarios. You could roll 12 successes but if you only have 2 composure and your opponent gets two successes with his defense roll then he shifts out of close range and avoids your attack entirely. For Ranged fighters this would obviously only happen if you were already at their extreme range and u shifted a range band away.

    Comment: Neall also mentioned he might make a rule to allow u to be able to save some successes from your defensive roll in order to use later in the round for additional stunts you may have access to but it I can't seem to find that aspect in the book so maybe that didn't make the cut. I mention this because it may allow people to save a couple successes in order to easily avoid a larger attack that may come from a low composure target. Personally I am 100% for the saving successes to use throughout the round because it prevents situations where the melee guy hits u first to force u to burn your defense roll and then not be able to have the option of Diving to Cover (although ud still need to disengage) later in the round. I guess the key thing that limits this from getting crazy in group fights it due to each stunt only being allowed to be used once in a round.

    Disclaimer: A am fully aware that a person rolling 5 dice on average would only get just under two successes and that having a composure of 3 or higher would make roll away rarely happen... however, this leads me to my 2nd point.

    2. It limits the scope of modifying defense pools in the future of Demigod and God. At God tier your success threshold becomes 7 rather than 8. This will effect the likelihood of Roll Away destroying a close range fighters ability to hurt someone in a 1v1. Now sure, by then most people will have 5 composure (because they likely will need to which is unfortunate because of my 3rd reason) and be able to protect themselves from this limitation to their offensive needs. However, I'd be very surprised if by demigod and god we don't see options to increase the size of your defensive pool. Not only increasing the size of the pool we may see +enhancements to your pool. As soon as enhancements to defense pools occur people are going to have 1 of their melee attacks missing nearly every round against any worthwhile opponent. The only means to counter this as a melee is to make sure everyone has a tag that makes their melee attacks hit at short range as well as close range. (But lets be honest, it sucks being required to do that in order to be able to hit things purely based on a rule that makes the melee characters struggle more than they already do for the extra risk they take vs range.) Also, the only means I see of being able to do this is using big reach weapons or being a warrior in order to be able to add more tags to your weapons when u need them. If you are not willing to limit your weapon choices or be a warrior then you may as well forget attacking in melee with a close range only weapon when u get to higher tier. (Unless of course the devs never intend to allow you to raise your defense pool or gain enhancements to it). But as I mentioned above, my 3rd point still remains.

    3. It makes composure the most efficient resistance stat for anyone who is attacking. If its a requirement in order to prevent Roll Away from making you pull your hair out then you need to go against the grains for pure rp reasons to use stamina or resolve. (Unless you use the favored approach of resistance then at minimum you have a nice 3 and that would protect you at low tiers.) I love the concept of the explosive resolve or the fit stamina characters... it sucks to see them be less optimal for offense.

    Vs Groups

    Roll away has 1 core weakness... and that is fighting groups. If you can't save successes for later use (or even if you can) you are only going to be able to use it once per round. It doesn't hurt group combat all that much but it will drastically extend 1v1 fights if they ever occur and turn them into a missfest. But I don't think this weakness makes it balanced or worthwhile to exist in the game. It unnecessarily hurts close range fighters and makes other stat builds less optimal.

    Final Thoughts

    My personal opinion is that every defensive stunt should have a purpose and a reason other than imagining the thing happening would be cool. I know Scion 2nd has taken a more narrative approach to the system but I feel this is going to mess up some groups who don't feel as comfortable just throwing out rules if it causes frustration. Dive to cover is a perfect example of a good universal defensive stunt mainly because it gives ranged characters a downside for their safer approach. Melee does not need a downside in the form of a secondary stat requirement. If this was something that was purely a Epic Dexterity thing then it wouldn't be nearly as bad (But it should target the highest of their resistance stats as to not hurt build diversity) but as a universal stunt it sort of forces melee characters into composure and longer reach weapons in order to avoid being penalized due to existence of this one stunt.

    At the end of the day, do you think Roll Away actually adds more to the gameplay of scion than it takes away from character choice? Or maybe its weakness vs groups is good enough to balance it? I am interested in hearing your opinions on this matter.

    I will state that I could very well be wrong with my assessments above. If you believe so, please provide a counter argument. If this isn't as big of an issue as I see it as I'd like to understand your perspective and change my mind about its inclusion. This topic is purely to get a discussion going and possibly improve the game if this is deemed an issue.
    Last edited by Yig1015w; 07-17-2018, 09:42 AM.

  • #2
    I see your point. I will think the only issue is that Scion 2e is not a mechanics game. Narration overrides rules. If roll away is causing a specific problem in your game, override it. You can add difficulty to roll away in difficult terrain, so maybe your good melee fighter lures the nimble opponent into bad footing. Even if roll away is really good, it forces your players to use teamwork to overcome it (ie: guy uses roll away to avoid a hit, but now his stunt is used up for the round and PC#2 can clock him). Plus, as you pointed out, it's often going to be hard to do. As for god tier....there's probably gonna be way more stuff that's going to overshadow a stunt like roll away. That's just my take, your points are also valid.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think the very existence of Roll Away is an actual threat. I think as a strategic option its both coherent storywise and straightforward mechanics-wise. Some of your points, I even think are more features than bugs. (Such as providing incentives for combat characters to invest in non-physical attributes.) That said I do think it has the potential to cause some problems in the future, in that it bypasses Disengagement action. How big a problem this is largely dependent on factors outside of the stunt itself.

      As far as the baseline rules go, getting 2 successes (assuming average composure) on 2-5 dice is by no means a certain or reliable defense. However, the game doesn't really have a system in place for improving the static values of derived stunt costs, so there may come a time when Composure simply isn't enough. This may be solvable through long-term system design, or expanding the applications of Scale, rather than effecting the stunt itself, however.

      Comment


      • #4
        I get narrative trumps rules but that always felt like a simple answer that doesn't actually fix the problem. It comes down to the question of "Does this provide more of the game than it limits." If the answer is no then you should consider changing or removing it rather than knowing its a flawed mechanic and relying on the catch all "if its not working for your group, throw it away" answer. Because if you know its flawed then its likely its going to not work for more groups than its going to work.

        If it stays, I think it should atleast be changed to successes equal to the characters highest resilience attribute. Atleast that way its not over emphasizing composure over resolve and stamina for a character's defense option.

        I do however think that if you look at things mathematically and if demigod and god does add any means of enhancements to your defense pool then you are going to find 5 successes (max composure/resilience stat) really easy to get. Which is going to annoy many close range fighters.

        Another option would be that the shifting out of the range band doesn't actually avoid the attack. Sure, you moved in reaction but u still get hit. That way its purely a movement tool and not a completely bypass attacks that should have hit you based on their many earned successes.

        Comment


        • #5
          That's fine really. But I think the trade off of getting a single move away from an opponent, rather than boosting your defense the whole round, is actually weaker in the long run. Yeah, you avoid 1 hit, but now your defense is 1 the rest of the round (unless you roll super well, in which case you deserve it!). So, that puts you in a dangerous position, which I think is narratively consistent with rolling around on the ground in a firefight.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yig1015w View Post

            If it stays, I think it should atleast be changed to successes equal to the characters highest resilience attribute. Atleast that way its not over emphasizing composure over resolve and stamina for a character's defense option.
            Eh, I'm going to hard disagree on this point. Stamina already adds to your health levels, and strictly speaking in this context a higher composure is a boost to offense. (Indeed, all other factors being equal, Stamina is essentially the best attribute since its the only thing that adds health levels and contributes to defense.) The game already has few reasons not to hyperspecialize, and provides enough starting dots to fill out non-"I hit stuff" traits without your primary focus suffering.

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree, it has draw backs. But for me, at the end of the day, I don't want it to have the possibility of causing scaling issues with increasing defense pools or adding enhancements to defense pools that likely will need to happen if you are to avoid the bigger hits coming your way later on in the higher (demigod and god) tiers. (Unless the system is going to mostly rely on increasing your base defense or soft armor as it's means of progressing you defensively) That and it sucks that composure is suddenly the optimal resilience attribute for anyone who is attacking which deincentivizes stamina or resolve based attackers.
              Last edited by Yig1015w; 07-18-2018, 11:25 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by schizoPOP View Post

                Eh, I'm going to hard disagree on this point. Stamina already adds to your health levels, and strictly speaking in this context a higher composure is a boost to offense. (Indeed, all other factors being equal, Stamina is essentially the best attribute since its the only thing that adds health levels and contributes to defense.) The game already has few reasons not to hyperspecialize, and provides enough starting dots to fill out non-"I hit stuff" traits without your primary focus suffering.
                Missed this post as I posted mine. That is a very good point with stamina effecting health. So both Stamina and Composure would have their unique advantages given to them. What about resolve?

                EDIT: Honestly, its looking like you are basically correct. Defensively atleast stamina has alot of applications with other system rolls and such that in many ways makes both stamina and composure something important to level up on any attacker with the roll away stunt in place. It does seem that resolve suffers quite a bit though. Other than being able to use resolve for skill checks it doesnt really provide much on its own to a character. Both stamina and composure also have the ability to pair them with skills and then Health and Roll Away.

                Maybe make Roll Away successes equal to the highest of resolve or composure?
                Last edited by Yig1015w; 07-18-2018, 11:41 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yig1015w View Post


                  Maybe make Roll Away successes equal to the highest of resolve or composure?
                  Honestly my preferred solution would be to give Resolve something else to do, but I don't think there's an obvious avenue to do so without drastically expanding the scope of this discussion.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by schizoPOP View Post

                    Honestly my preferred solution would be to give Resolve something else to do, but I don't think there's an obvious avenue to do so without drastically expanding the scope of this discussion.
                    Yea, its always preferred to give something unique to a option that feels weaker than bunch it with something else or simply take away from another option that seems strong.

                    The whole incentivizing melee fighters to have a weapon capable of short and close range is still a thing though even if u band-aid fix it to say it is composure or resolve.

                    You also have the potential issue of limiting what the devs can do in terms of defensive pools unless its totally fine that 5 successes can always beat a close/max range attack regardless of how big the attack was. (Once a turn atleast.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Now that I think about it I do think the maneuver could use some extra language to clarify how it is actually supposed to interact with with whether or not the attack hits. If it can be countered by say Reflexive Movement or if it fails to avoid damage from Reach weapons at all, than I don't think there's any real problem, even if the maneuver gets disproportionately more reliable with tier.

                      (And if all it does is a some extra movement with no damage mitigation whatsoever, no real change is needed but should probably be more clear.)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by schizoPOP View Post
                        Now that I think about it I do think the maneuver could use some extra language to clarify how it is actually supposed to interact with with whether or not the attack hits. If it can be countered by say Reflexive Movement or if it fails to avoid damage from Reach weapons at all, than I don't think there's any real problem, even if the maneuver gets disproportionately more reliable with tier.

                        (And if all it does is a some extra movement with no damage mitigation whatsoever, no real change is needed but should probably be more clear.)
                        Yup. Now we are basically on the same page. Still think its odd u seem to need minimum reach on a melee weapon though if it does properly avoid the attack though. Seems like something you should just give people when they reach a certain tier. I mean, what right minded god would use a weapon that couldn't hit someone 3 miles away.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ....I have to admit, it didn't even OCCUR to me that you could use Roll Away to actually actively avoid attacks. I'd assumed it was just a positioning tool. That changes everything, and honestly, I'm going to have to think about this before I answer your question. My gut reaction is that this is a good thing. I can say that I've found Defense a bit toothless without access to this.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've been thinking about this a bit, and I think the biggest problem I have with judging the Stunt is the combat order of operations.

                            You declare your attack. If it's the first attack against a target, the target gets to roll a Defense action. Then you roll to attack. Simple enough.

                            But in this case, the target becomes invalid. As far as I can tell, the system doesn't really explain what to do if you declare an action, but something happens and now that action is pointless. Can you take a different action? Do you have to do it even though you and your character know it's pointless? Should it count as a failed roll and thus justify a Consolation (which could offset a lot of problems with spamming Roll Away in a one-on-one fight), or can you treat it as a general action (letting you spend threshold successes on normal Stunts like creating Complications on your opponent)?

                            How that gets answered seems to matter a lot. If Roll Away just negates the attacker completely (no failed roll to offer Momentum/Consolations on, no successful roll to try to influence things), the presented concerns as the power levels grow seems like they might hold. If Roll Away means you can't be the target of the attack, but the attack still gets to act in a meaningful fashion, I think a lot of the issues go away.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If your attack fails because of defense, you totally get a consolation.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X