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The Roll Away Defensive Stunt Is Problimatic For the Future of Scion 2nd

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  • #16
    But as far as I tell though, no attack takes place to fail:

    "2. If your target is in range of your weapon, make an attack roll. Total your successes, adding Enhancements to the total."

    If they successfully Roll Away, they aren't in range of your weapon (at least until you have powers to boost your range beyond normal), you don't make an attack roll to success or fail at.

    That was my point about the book not seeming to say what happens if a target becomes invalid.

    If you're fighting someone and they stay in-range, using their defense action to increase their Defense, and you fail to overcome it with your successes, you don't hit the difficulty of the action and get a consolation (presumably Momentum).

    But you don't get consolations on actions where the Storyguide declares there's no point in rolling because there's no chance of success.

    That's why I think what Roll Away needs in terms of clarification is "what happens if you declare an action, but it becomes invalid before it you roll."

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    • #17
      Got busy and ended up not responding to this but it does seem that the issue has now been properly brought to light. Now we just need to wait and see how the devs want to address it.

      Thanks for the discussion!

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      • #18
        From how I read the rule, there's no indication that it in any way negates the attack. The attack would be resolved as normal and then you move a range band away as a reaction - that's still circumstantially useful, but it doesn't break the game in any way. Allowing the movement to actually cancel the attack is both redundant with the Defend stunt and something I would expect to see as a supernatural ability, not a standard combat maneuver. Also, both the Defend and Dive for Cover stunts have specific language on what benefit they provide against the attack, since this stunt does not have that language I would rule that it simply allows you to move away after the attack resolves.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Rikiji View Post
          From how I read the rule, there's no indication that it in any way negates the attack. The attack would be resolved as normal and then you move a range band away as a reaction - that's still circumstantially useful, but it doesn't break the game in any way. Allowing the movement to actually cancel the attack is both redundant with the Defend stunt and something I would expect to see as a supernatural ability, not a standard combat maneuver. Also, both the Defend and Dive for Cover stunts have specific language on what benefit they provide against the attack, since this stunt does not have that language I would rule that it simply allows you to move away after the attack resolves.
          You know, when you put it that way, it almost seems silly to read it any other way. That makes it useful, but not be all end all cheese. If you successfully defend in addition to Roll Away, you've put some space between you and the melee meanie. Fail your defense, but still roll away, you eat the damage, but you have put space in between you and your opponent. Useful.

          The fact that the wording caused so many people (myself included) to think it might work the other way, even though this makes so much more sense, makes me think it should still be clarified.

          Then it being opposed by Composure makes sense, as it represents the attackers ability to not get lost in what they are doing and stay on top of the target.


          Raksha are my fae-vorite.

          Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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          • #20
            So, after I finished writing this post, I had another flash of insight, so this kinda became two posts. One about Roll Away only doing exactly what the text says, and figuring out it's relationship to Disengage, and another about how No Sell Roll Away might not be broken until Scaling becomes a thing (a noted portion of the OP).

            Initial Post-
            I tried to do a quick review, but it ended up being very involved, trying to figure out if there is a blatant superior option between Roll Away and some combination of a mixed action Disengage. Had to remove the Exalted rules for Disengage from my brain, as it has some specific language that the Scion version doesn't have, and Exalted doesn't have Roll Away, which seems to completely ignore Disengage as a concept, as it doesn't mention it. This may be due to some developmental crossover between Scion and Trinity, as Trinity has the exact same verbiage for Roll Away in its preview document, but doesn't have Disengage. There is nothing in the rules even hinting at needing to Disengage to Roll Away, or even a way to do it, as that is supposed to be a Simple Opposed Action, while Roll Away is most likely Reflexive.

            I started to go into a whole analysis, went down a wormhole of how exactly Disengage and Withdraw would actually keep you away from someone wanting to Melee you, and noticed that it focuses on what is probably the attacker's best stat combo, but then I realized that Defense is just a rolled Attribute, and you are trying to buy off an unrolled Attribute's worth of Successes. Unless you are high Resistance and they are low Composure, this is not something you will be doing casually with just a regular Defense.

            The way I see it now, Roll away is there so that you can OH SHIT button Full Defense, and still get into a different range band, as Disengage is a Simple Action, and so is Full Defense, so you can't do both. So you put up a good defense to not get injury and also get to the next band over, or prioritize Rolling Away over.

            Lingering questions (beyond really digging in to Disengage and Withdraw on my own time) if you Roll Away can you then also Withdraw? If you are in melee, or hell someone in close range shoots at you, can you get to Cover, or would you need to Roll Away AND Take Cover? If it is both, would you Roll Away at the cost of the Melee attacker's composure, or the Ranged?


            Second Post-
            This is starting to get scattered, but unless I talk through it I'll never understand it. Looking again at how Defense is a rolled single attribute, and Composure is unrolled, I'm starting to see how the No Sell version of Roll Away isn't a pants on head crazy reading. Roll Away could be a pray to RNGesus No Sell option, as you would need to almost go out of your way to not at least have a 2 in Composure, and unless you have 5 in your Resistance (granted, not difficult) that isn't guaranteed. This does become less of a mathematical longshot when Enhancements get involved though.


            WAIT. Antagonists don't roll defense, and can't buy defensive stunts like roll away, and they also don't have Composure. So when does this rule even apply? PvP? If you just use one of the Antagonist's pools as Composure it would be a rather inflated number, as even the Desperation Pool represents a Skill+Attribute instead of just an Attribute.


            Raksha are my fae-vorite.

            Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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            • #21
              Don't have a copy of the rules, but got a question. What is the probability of a "move with your target" or "teleport to your target" knack in a later book? Or even a "faster range band change" knack.

              This seems a bit of a one trick pony, and I opine/want without logical reason that the person with the knack would need to choose and setup the battlefield for this to be really useful. "Common" circumstances like "you roll into the room's wall, my buddy is hanging out at that range band, I have a long range weapon and a motorcycle, the floor is lava, fighting while in the air, or on top of a C-17" could make the range change impossible, irrelevant, or more dangerous than staying put.

              If this is the only knack with problems scaling up then I'm actually kinda impressed. Is the problem that it's Attrib instead of Skill+Attrib or what?

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              • #22
                This isn't a knack, it's a standard combat maneuver - anyone can do it. Epic Dexterity has boons that allow you to move quickly (The Falling Star boon lets you cross 2 range bands as a reflexive Move) and the Step Sideways knack in the Liminal calling gives you a short range teleport that can be used to close with your target.

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