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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



    Who cares if the world was made into a wasteland? These aren't mortals who have to face the consequences of their reckless behavior for generations to come. These are deities who have the ability to touch a barren patch of dirt with their finger tip and instantly grow a forest that spans for miles around. Disease and pollutants are banished with a mere gesture, and even the iron grip of death itself can be challenged if a God chooses to intervene.


    The Gods created the universe before, and they can do so again. In fact, quite an awful lot of apocalypse mythos foretells that not only will the world be destroyed, but it will also be reborn in some fashion or another. Hell, the Aztecs have rebuilt the world several times already.


    And if you think that the gods wouldn't get directly involved in mortal affairs, the Abrahamic faiths would hotly disagree with you. There are stories in which YHVH obliterates entire cities because he found their behavior offensive. Sometimes he would send a Scion to do so, like with the story of Sampson, and other times, he'd send down something much more grandiose, like an Arch Angel!

    This guy was shamelessly flashing his power around in people's faces to prove he was the bestest, most powerful God there ever was. And some say he was even responsible for the Black Death that killed a massive chunk of Europe's population!

    You're telling me the other pantheons aren't going to step in and put a stop to that kind of shit?
    Maybe they did. Maybe the reason that archangels aren’t coming down to obliterate entire cities today is that the other pantheons said, “Dude, knock it off, or we’re going to get involved in your affairs. You won’t like that.” Hell, maybe that’s the reason that New Testament God seems a bit nicer than Old Testament God.
    As for apocalyptic warfare, sure, the Gods could rebuild. But they’re also bound by Fate. The World might need to end in a certain way to be rebuilt in a manner the Gods favor, and there’s no guarantee that all of them would survive such an apocalypse anyway. While some of the pettiest Gods might not give a flying rat’s ass about humanity, most of them will still be invested in their own survival at the very least.
    The problem with this argument is that it is based on the assumption, “If God A exists and is active in the world, then God A must also do X, Y, and Z in the world.” If Zeus strikes a mortal with a thunderbolt for insulting him, then any other mortal that insults him must also be struck by a thunderbolt. It assumes that the Gods can’t change over time. It assumes that they don’t learn from their past experiences. The Gods are people. They have their own desires and plans, and most probably don’t include being hopelessly Fatebound among them. Avoiding that requires a degree of subtlety.


    Jason Ross Inczauskis, Freelance Writer
    Currently writing: Dark Eras 2, Mummy: The Curse 2e, Pirates of Pugmire, TC In Media Res. Previous projects: DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action; C20 Anthology of Dreams
    Masculine pronouns preferred.

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    • #47
      "To the people asking for a wildly different history of the World; why the binary? Why “must” divine influence change either everything so that the World is nothing like the world we know? “Obviously it must be so” goes the argument, but people showed how it isn’t. What’s the logic behind, other than wanting to play a High Fantasy setting in a game geared for Urban Fantasy?"
      I didn't say "it MUST be so, only that I felt it should. But how do you figure that Gods and their Children is limited to Urban Fantasy?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by White Oak Dragon View Post

        The problem with this argument is that it is based on the assumption, “If God A exists and is active in the world, then God A must also do X, Y, and Z in the world.” If Zeus strikes a mortal with a thunderbolt for insulting him, then any other mortal that insults him must also be struck by a thunderbolt. It assumes that the Gods can’t change over time. It assumes that they don’t learn from their past experiences. .


        Uranus - I'm going to devour my own children out of fear that they might overthrow me some day.

        Cronus - I'm going to castrate my father and take over his position. Then I'm going to devour my children out of fear that they might overthrow me some day.

        Zeus - I'm going to castrate my father and take over his position. Then I'm going to devour my own child out of fear that they might overthrow me some day.



        I can't help but notice a recurring pattern here.


        But I'll agree with the idea that divine interference could be responsible for YHVH's shift in personality over the years.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
          "To the people asking for a wildly different history of the World; why the binary? Why “must” divine influence change either everything so that the World is nothing like the world we know? “Obviously it must be so” goes the argument, but people showed how it isn’t. What’s the logic behind, other than wanting to play a High Fantasy setting in a game geared for Urban Fantasy?"
          I didn't say "it MUST be so, only that I felt it should. But how do you figure that Gods and their Children is limited to Urban Fantasy?


          I think it might have something to do with the trope that in every story that features modern times, but with the presence of supernatural, it always, always involves the supernatural having gone into hiding. The Gods have some kind of pact or some other explanation that forbids them from directly interfering with mortal affairs. The power of magic waned over time as people came to embrace the ways of science, or maybe humans just outright hunted monsters to the brink of extinction.

          Scion 2E is the first story I've come across that assumes the Gods, Magic and Monsters never kept a low profile, but rather maintained a recognized presence throughout history. They aren't returning to the World after a long period of absence. They've been active in the World the entire time, and we should expect that the World is different because of it.

          I'm sure everybody here is familiar with the Butterfly Effect. Altering history isn't as cut and dry as just changing one little event, your changing every event that follows the initial change, unleashing a chain reaction that ripples throughout time.

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          • #50
            I'm confused...where does it say the history of the World is the same as ours? It said it resembles ours, sure, but that is not the same.n Cortez showed up?

            The MCU resembles our universe, the World of Darkness also looks like our and so does American Gods and the Wicked and the Divine. But they can't have the same history because of the vast differences between them, let alone the conceits not present in our own.

            The fact is resembling our history doesn't mean they share it. It means the outlines look the same if you squint, that maybe at first glance you don't notice the drive through is O'Toolies, not Mc'Donalds because they don't look that different until you go beyond the surface.
            Why isn't the Church of Thor bigger in Marvel comics? It is; but that isn't where the spotlight is and it hasn't overwhelmed the other faiths.

            Why isn't the World more different from our own? It is; you just have to shine the light there; it is just close enough that the World looks the same at first glance, if you squint.
            So look closer, dig deeper and explore the 'mythic underground'. Ask the questions and come up with the answers. Why didn't the Theoi fight to maintain their control of the Roman Empire? What ever happened to the Holy Grail and King Arthur? Where were the Teotl when Cortez showed up?

            These are good questions, but the answers should exist in the World and should be found out at the table.

            The World is different; but you have to look for those differences.
            Last edited by FallenEco; 07-22-2018, 09:21 PM.


            Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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            • #51
              I think that was the point - the world should be different. Some say a little, some say a lot. I'm just one of those who feels it should be much more different than the default, but that's my personal bias.

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              • #52
                I can see both sides, to be honest. Both have their issues. The Masquerade has its obvious logistical issues, but making big changes to earth's history comes with its problems too. It can lead to unpredictable, butterfly effect style results, and end up with a world that barely resembles ours. That to me essentially defies the purpose of an urban fantasy story, turning it into high fantasy in a world very loosely based on hours. If that's what you want, more power to you, but between the two extremes I would prefer a Masquerade, with all the logistical problems essentially being acceptable breaks from reality. This sort of middle ground is honestly kind of an alien concept to me. I understand why people think the gods being real would lead to enormous changes, far bigger than described in the material, but at the same time, I don't really want it to go too far away from the urban fantasy feel.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                  I can see both sides, to be honest. Both have their issues. The Masquerade has its obvious logistical issues, but making big changes to earth's history comes with its problems too. It can lead to unpredictable, butterfly effect style results, and end up with a world that barely resembles ours. That to me essentially defies the purpose of an urban fantasy story, turning it into high fantasy in a world very loosely based on hours. If that's what you want, more power to you, but between the two extremes I would prefer a Masquerade, with all the logistical problems essentially being acceptable breaks from reality. This sort of middle ground is honestly kind of an alien concept to me. I understand why people think the gods being real would lead to enormous changes, far bigger than described in the material, but at the same time, I don't really want it to go too far away from the urban fantasy feel.


                  In order for a Masquerade to work, most of the population has to agree to make it work. And considering the Titans are god-level beings who have come to embody their purviews in their purest form, with entire species worth of monsters devoted to serving them, I think that would be near impossible to achieve. And if mortals have known about the existence of the supernatural all this time, then it stands to reason they've come up with a few ways to protect themselves over the ages.


                  Which is why I think the idea of the supernatural creatures choosing to live on the fringes of society makes the most logical sense. The World knows that fairies, nymphs, satyrs and talking animals exists, but they prefer to stay within the comfort of their sacred forests. If you happen to run across one, it's probably because you went actively looking for one. Unless there's an emergency that forces them to venture into more civilized lands.



                  Cities protect themselves against vampire attacks by instituting a curfew in which nobody but the proper authorities are supposed to be on the streets after a certain hour.



                  People might be required to submit themselves to a lycanthropy screening after a body is discovered to have been mauled by some unidentified animal.


                  As for dangerous cultists... well, I suppose the government would deal with them the say way they do in the real world

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                    Uranus - I'm going to devour my own children out of fear that they might overthrow me some day.

                    Cronus - I'm going to castrate my father and take over his position. Then I'm going to devour my children out of fear that they might overthrow me some day.

                    Zeus - I'm going to castrate my father and take over his position. Then I'm going to devour my own child out of fear that they might overthrow me some day.



                    I can't help but notice a recurring pattern here.
                    .
                    But there are differences showing that gods learn. Uranus didn't devour his children, he imprisoned them thus making it possible for Gaia to support them. Cronus devoured his children to stop that from happening. Zeus on the other hand is much more careful in his actions with his children, only ever acting if the said child was prophesied to be a threat, thus causing him to swallow Metis before she could give birth to her second child thus stopping that before there was even a chance and also arranging to marriage between Thetis and Pelias for similar reasons since it was prophesied that Thetis child would surpass his father. Other then that tho Zeus has been far less dictorial then the previous kings of the world, mostly because he doesn't wish to follow his predecessors mistakes and fall.


                    .

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                    • #55
                      I haven't received my copy, so I don't know if this has been adressed.

                      I believe one of the core concept to define from the World is the relation between mortals and gods. The first edition was pretty vague in this regard, only stating that fate binded the gods. When my campaign reached demi-god and god, I had to answer the question: Why do gods care or need the humans? Why is the World particularly important to Gods and Titans? Why can't they intervene directly on the World?

                      Answering these will probably solve your problem altogether. In my campaign I balanced the metaphysics of it all. The fundamentals of the universe were like a tapestry. These raw concepts were the Titans, their children subdivisions of the concept (ex: Fire would have aspects of Hearth, Heat, Creativity, etc...). The gods were the children of the Titans that ripped free from their parents, stealing part of this 'tapestry' with them. The Titans as fundamental forces wanted to be whole again. Enter the humans. While the divine are the building blocks of creation, mortals were collectively the embodiment of 'Will', blowing their stories through Fate to the Gods and Titans. It's what drives change, movement through the threads of the tapestry. The less they were to remember the stories of the gods, Fate's shackles would become weaker. The Wyrd would then reinitiate the cycle, to bolster it's claim on new legends.

                      This is why claiming the World or it's fundamental Will was critical to the struggle of the Titans. Controlling or corrupting the Will of the universe could win the war unto itself. Is the Will a fundamental, a Titan itself, or is it something else? How many cycles has the World been through? That's for the players to find out

                      So per say the gods don't need the human's prayers and it also helps to explains the Wyrd. It can also explains why the Gods would battle to protect or claim soverainty over the World, even the most selfish ones. I found that this enquiry to the metaphysics of the Scion universe helped to keep intrigue flowing even at God levels instead of having just concluding the Ragnarok epic battles.

                      ---

                      So to get back to the issue at hand, if the gods have never left the World, there has to be a reason. Why aren't they more present? Have they stayed away from major events in human history, keeping their conflicts as hidden as possible to avoid implicating / fatebinding with mortals? I would also argue that otherwise some of them would be deeply invested in the fate of humans and while picturing a Scion behind major conflicts of History is cool, I always feel awkward to appoint a God-parent to historical figures, as if humans couldn't be great and terrible on their own.

                      Other questions:

                      Does it 'cost' them something to sire Scions? With satellites signaling the end of any Terra Incognita, how or why are there still creatures in the World? Is there a truce between pantheons, a sort of NATO / UN in regard to the Titan threat? If so, are Scions the ones to manage these or are the Divine can't help meddling?

                      If this isn't adressed in Origins, I hope they do in Hero. It's easy to disregard and say: it is what it is. But the answers shape the relation between the Scion with it's parent, the World, other Scions, etc... These are fundamentals to the story and character development.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Catabase View Post
                        I haven't received my copy, so I don't know if this has been adressed.

                        I believe one of the core concept to define from the World is the relation between mortals and gods. The first edition was pretty vague in this regard, only stating that fate binded the gods. When my campaign reached demi-god and god, I had to answer the question: Why do gods care or need the humans? Why is the World particularly important to Gods and Titans? Why can't they intervene directly on the World?

                        Titans need the World because they are the living embodiments of universal concepts. Terra wasn't just the Greater Titan of the World, she was the very concept of The World itself. Muspelheim wasn't just the Greater Titan of Fire, he was the very concept of fire given consciousness.

                        Gods, on the other hand, came to embody aspects of mortal concepts such as law, chaos, wisdom, love and so on. The Gods are recognized by their distinctly human characteristics, while the Titans are recognized by their more primal natures and impartial attitudes. The Titans aren't explicitly malicious, they're just behaving in accordance with what their nature drives them to do. And if somebody happens to get hurt along the way, that's just how life goes.


                        As for directly intervening with the world, they actually can. In fact, mythology is rife with stories of them doing exactly that. It was only the work of popular modern media who began to implement rules and systems that prevented the Gods from taking an active hand over our development.

                        As for the Scion setting, you have the concept of Fate Bonds, in which the Gods (and presumably Titans) are subject to the will of predetermination, as well as mortal comprehension. If a God behaves like an arrogant prick, then Fate will conspire to place them in situations where they continue to behave like an arrogant prick.

                        And in 1E, there's a possible story hook that revolves around changing humanity's perception of Aten (the Titan of Light) by trapping him inside the Hadron Collider and changing the way mortals viewed his existence. If the plan worked, then Aten's consciousness dissolves as he becomes nothing more than a mass of photons spinning around in a giant tube.
                        Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-27-2018, 03:42 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Catabase View Post
                          So to get back to the issue at hand, if the gods have never left the World, there has to be a reason. Why aren't they more present? Have they stayed away from major events in human history, keeping their conflicts as hidden as possible to avoid implicating / fatebinding with mortals? I would also argue that otherwise some of them would be deeply invested in the fate of humans and while picturing a Scion behind major conflicts of History is cool, I always feel awkward to appoint a God-parent to historical figures, as if humans couldn't be great and terrible on their own.
                          In the World of 2e, the Gods get involved with the World's affairs quite often. Just y'know subtle-like. Rather than Ares appearing and demolishing an army (which can lead to MASS Fatebinding which is capable of fundamentally shattering or reshaping a God's identity, see what happened to the Orisha and the Loa) he may provide a blessing to an army, making them fight better. Sometimes they do walk the World, clad in human forms called Incarnations, helping advance their goals and agendas.

                          There are a couple of historical figures who are Scions in the World. Iulius Caesar, for one, was a Scion of Aphrodite and his conquest of the Gauls was part of a power play to try and guarantee his Apotheosis. Imhotep was a Scion in 1e and I believe he still is. There's a college in Memphis, Egypt, that bears his name. You are right in that not every historical figure needs to be a Scion, and Neall himself has said in the Discord that he'd rather not say EVERYONE important in history was a Scion.

                          Does it 'cost' them something to sire Scions?
                          Time. Effort. They'll also have to get Birthrights arranged should they choose a Visitation. Scions are a hefty investment... But not to the degree that you may be thinking, where if Re has a Scion the sun is going to be a bit dimmer for a bit while he recovers.

                          And unless it's part of their legend, most Godly Incarnations aren't going to have a whole litter of kids. Very rarely does something come of them laying with a human. Even rarer are the ones who become full Scions.

                          With satellites signaling the end of any Terra Incognita, how or why are there still creatures in the World?
                          The thing about Terra Incognita is that they're tough to pin down. Take a turn down the forest road, you'll find yourself near a lake that isn't on any map YOU own.

                          That said, it's not like the people of The World are ignorant about these creatures. Many in Greece know that yeah, centaurs run wild somewhere over there-ish. Most people just don't go looking for them because, well, centaurs are brutish, mean, territorial, and hooooo boy they are mean to intruders let me tell you. I think the Origin book mentions that there's like, Troll Preserves over in Norway.

                          Is there a truce between pantheons, a sort of NATO / UN in regard to the Titan threat? If so, are Scions the ones to manage these or are the Divine can't help meddling?
                          Actually, depending on whom you ask, the different Gods have different outlooks on the whole Titan War thing. The Deva, Teotl, and Theoi are the end of the spectrum going "Man we gotta get rid of ALL the Titans! They're dangerous!" while at the other end you have the Manitou, who are all "God? Titan? Man, everything's just a spirit. Some can be jerks, sure-" and the Orisha, who just go "Titans? Psh, I doubt they're different enough to warrant a different name."

                          However, when monsters threaten the World on a smaller scale, usually a Hero Scion is the one dispersed. They have a great deal more operational freedom, and they have the advantage of being relatively precise compared to the full wrath of the Deva.

                          Now for the relationships between the Pantheons... MOST generally don't engage in full war with one-another. Generally. Mostly due to worry of mutually assured destruction. You may get proxy fronts, power plays, bits of influence shifting here and there through omens, messages granted to followers and temples, and maybe having a Scion make a play against a rival God.


                          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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