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The Demonic Pantheon

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mysteris View Post
    Oh I'm totally open for suggestions. Hamartia sounds like a good name for the Pantheon Purview. I edited that in just now.

    I recall people were asking about a who's who list for some of the Demonic powers. I could write up Cain, and I like the idea of Sodom and Gomorrah as Terra Incognitas. I might just have to make a write-up of them.
    If you do do Sodom and Gamorah, i’d just make sure to stress what they were targeted for destruction for, because there’s a lot of cultural baggage and assumptions that comes with that otherwise.

    If you’re treating the Bible as right, and they had it coming - i’d stress the xenophobia and rape in the Genesis narrative, as well as what we’re told via Ezekiel “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

    If you want a more sympathetic take, just make them worshipers of the Rebel Pantheon in their Titanomachy who the Angelic Titans destroyed.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-20-2018, 12:02 AM.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

      If you do do Sodom and Gamorah, i’d just make sure to stress what what they were targeted for destruction for, because there’s a lot of cultural baggage and assumptions that comes with that otherwise.
      Trying to rape a couple angels seems pretty straight forward to me.

      Also, I'm feeling inspired to create some character concepts for this, already.

      Got an idea for a Scion of Behemoth nagging at my mind.
      Last edited by Nyrufa; 08-18-2018, 11:36 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

        Trying to rape a couple angels seems pretty straight forward to me.)
        I agree, but there’s a thousand year history of people missing that point, so it’s worth making explicit.


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        • #34
          Well, that looks really awesome actually!

          I wonder what role would Samael serve in that version- while he is typically (in Judaism, at least) considered to be an evil angel, he is still an angel. On the other side, he is said to be Lilith's mate. In this presentation, would he work better as a titan or as a god?


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          • #35
            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
            Well, that looks really awesome actually!

            I wonder what role would Samael serve in that version- while he is typically (in Judaism, at least) considered to be an evil angel, he is still an angel. On the other side, he is said to be Lilith's mate. In this presentation, would he work better as a titan or as a god?
            Not to detract from Mysteris’ amazing work, but in my own project with an Angelic Pantheon based on Judaic lore, and then with an optional expansion via Christian lore than includes a Pantheon of the Fallen, my own plan is for Samael to be in the first chapter but be swappable out for the Fallen. While he comes off rather different, with different motives, he serves largely the same cosmological role as Lucifer (including lover of Lilith, and being the serpent). As such for Mysteris’ purposes I’d suggest making Samael a name/Mantle of Lucifer.
            Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-20-2018, 12:10 AM.


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            • #36
              (Definitely haven't taken much from Islam, but given you're casting the angels as evil and Islam doesn't do much in the way of traditional demons, that's unsurprising.)
              Yeah, that'd be hard to use the Demons of Islamic traditions without stepping on the toes of a Pre-Islamic Pantheon (which Mysteris quite elegantly adressed with Astaroth/Astarte/Ishtar). The only case of an oriental deity being a Mantle for a Demon would be Lucifer as Melek Taus.

              However, from a Muslim standpoint, one could use Harut and Marut, two figures of fallen-but-kind-of-still-obeying the Lord.

              The angels were astonished at the acts of disobedience committed by the human beings on earth, claiming they would do better than them. Therefore, God challenged the angels to choose two representatives among them, who would descend to earth and be endowed with bodily desires. During their stay on earth, they fell in love with a woman named Zohra (often identified with Venus). She told them she would become intimate with them if they joined her in idolatry. The angels refused and remained pious. Later they met her again and the woman this time stated she would become intimate with them if they drank alcohol. The angels thought that alcohol could not cause great harm and therefore, they accepted the condition. After they were drunk, they became intimate with her and after noticing a witness, they killed him. On the next day, Harut and Marut regretted their deeds but could not ascend to heaven anymore due to their sins: their link to the angels was broken. Thereupon, God asked them, either their punishment shall be in this world or in the hereafter. They chose to be punished on earth and therefore were sent to Babel, teaching humans magic but not without warning them that they were just a temptation.
              They could very well be Titans with a more nuanced position towards Demons (the preview gives the example of Helios), with the Purview of Fortune, the Demonic Virtue of Selflessness and the Titanic Virtue of Fecundity.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                If you do do Sodom and Gamorah, i’d just make sure to stress what they were targeted for destruction for, because there’s a lot of cultural baggage and assumptions that comes with that otherwise.

                If you’re treating the Bible as right, and they had it coming - i’d stress the xenophobia and rape in the Genesis narrative, as well as what we’re told via Ezekiel “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

                If you want a more sympathetic take, just make them worshipers of the Rebel Pantheon in their Titanomachy who the Angelic Titans destroyed.

                Fun Fact: Gomorrah means, in effect, "deep water" in Hebrew.

                Funner Fact: We hear a lot about Sodom. Not very much about Gomorrah. The largest problem Gomorrah had was a lack of sovereign kingship over the area, which it shared with Sodom.

                Perhaps the ruins of the two cities are contrasts between the Virtues; Sodom is extreme Selfishness, while Gomorrah is extreme Selflessness-which can be almost as bad, as it expects everyone else to bear the weight as well and dictates obliteration of the self. When both were attacked by El, the Demons came in to attempt to balance them, because both cities are emblematic of what happens when guiding humanity fails. Maybe they were originally worshipers of Leviathan and Behemoth before they were banished and became Gods, with Leviathan micromanaging Gomorrah to extremes and Behemoth forgetting Sodom existed for years on end, and their own respective flaws in administration is why they eventually showed up on El's hit list.
                Last edited by Leliel; 08-20-2018, 10:56 PM.


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                • #38
                  In general, Virtues in Scion aren't polar opposites. There's a tension between them; but there are situations where the two can be reconciled.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Adrasalieth View Post

                    Yeah, that'd be hard to use the Demons of Islamic traditions without stepping on the toes of a Pre-Islamic Pantheon (which Mysteris quite elegantly adressed with Astaroth/Astarte/Ishtar). The only case of an oriental deity being a Mantle for a Demon would be Lucifer as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus"]Melek Taus[/URL].
                    Since an ongoing genocide is motivated - or at least officially justified by its perpetrators - by exactly that conflation, I think it’s a subject to tread very carefully on.
                    Last edited by glamourweaver; 08-21-2018, 08:49 AM.


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                    • #40
                      glamourweaver You're absolutely right: I apologize if my suggestion had any insensitive implications, it was absolutely not how it was meant. In my defence, the portrayal of Lucifer within the frame of this Pantheon is an overall positive one, and one that seems to match the positive qualities attributed by the Yezidis to the thought (contrarily to the aims of Irakian propaganda, clearly designed to malign them).

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Adrasalieth View Post
                        glamourweaver You're absolutely right: I apologize if my suggestion had any insensitive implications, it was absolutely not how it was meant. In my defence, the portrayal of Lucifer within the frame of this Pantheon is an overall positive one, and one that seems to match the positive qualities attributed by the Yezidis to the thought (contrarily to the aims of Irakian propaganda, clearly designed to malign them).
                        I get that, and I didn’t think you were being malicious toward the Yazidi faith. I just wanted to stress how sensitive a topic it was if we or Mysteris do go down that path.

                        I’m inclined to think Melek Taus doesn’t work in Mysteris’ Pantheon because he is by definition loyal to God and not fallen. Even interpreting Lucifer through a positive lens, he’s a righteous rebel against a tyrannical God, while Malak Taus is still very much a divine angel (who in some tellings may have been cast down at one point, but if so he’s definitely redeemed and loyal now), his only act of defiance being in truth an act of loyalty (he would’t bow to Adam because he was loyal to God’s preceding command not to bow before anyone before God).

                        I’m considering including him in my version of an angelic Pantheon as being the unfallen Mantle of the first angel, completely separate from Lucifer now, who Lucifer despises for embodying what he lost.


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                        • #42
                          These are some great ideas everyone. Life got busy the last few days but I'll try to have some new content up soon. I'm thinking of tackling Sodom and Gomorrah and Cain for starters.

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                          • #43
                            Amazing work!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                              I agree, but there’s a thousand year history of people missing that point, so it’s worth making explicit.

                              Actually, on retrospect, they were going to be destroyed anyways. The two angels were just sent in to investigate if there were any people in the city who were worth saving.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                                Actually, on retrospect, they were going to be destroyed anyways. The two angels were just sent in to investigate if there were any people in the city who were worth saving.
                                True, but the additional context of Ezekiel makes clear the sins Sodom is being destroyed for relates directly to their treatment of foreigners and the poor, which the attempted gang rape of outsiders was emblematic of.

                                The point stands that the idea of homosexuality as the sin of Sodom is a non-Biblical idea that has been promoted for millennia, and thus worth clarifying as not being the case if Sodom is being brought up in text.
                                Last edited by glamourweaver; 11-09-2018, 04:45 PM.


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