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The Enduri - The Pantheon of the Manchu People 2e Homebrew

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  • #16
    So, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about the mythology of Guam, are there any tidbits you can tell me about the Taotaomo'na and why they've come to interest you so much? Is there something unique about them, like the Enduri being female-dominant, or any particularly fascinating figures you could give an abridged description of?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sacerdos View Post

      Sure. I think most have figured it out by now Also Watcher is telling me that I misunderstood him and that order is not set in stone yet, because apparently, my desire to have things sorted geographically does not trump things like common sense and practicality, what with the Abosom being practically finished, and the Zemí very much not ^^'
      WHAT?! I've always dreamed of having Cagn (Kaggen?) be a playable Divine Parent but I always assumed it would be just that, a dream.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
        So, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about the mythology of Guam, are there any tidbits you can tell me about the Taotaomo'na and why they've come to interest you so much? Is there something unique about them, like the Enduri being female-dominant, or any particularly fascinating figures you could give an abridged description of?
        They have absolutely no distinction between gods and humans. Even the creator pair, born from original chaos, are technically just humans like everyone else. I look forward to the madness that is implementing this. But they're a good option, that doesn't mean I promise they'll happen. So no spoilers yet, because I also don't really have any.


        Originally posted by Corax View Post

        WHAT?! I've always dreamed of having Cagn (Kaggen?) be a playable Divine Parent but I always assumed it would be just that, a dream.
        Scion, where dreams come true In all seriousness, though, yeah, we're working on them, but there's still a long way to go until they're anything close to finished, and a lot can happen in the meantime. So don't get too excited just yet

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        • #19
          Well considering I thought I would never even have them mere hours ago, I'm willing to be as patient as needed.

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          • #20
            How exactly would you go about addressing the deities of Melanesia and Micronesia? Are they easily divisible into several pantheons, as with the Taotaomo'na specifically being the pantheon of Guam, or is there a ton of overlap between the different regions, as with the Atua?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
              How exactly would you go about addressing the deities of Melanesia and Micronesia? Are they easily divisible into several pantheons, as with the Taotaomo'na specifically being the pantheon of Guam, or is there a ton of overlap between the different regions, as with the Atua?
              Micronesia definitely has a bunch of pantheons, the islands are far apart and the legends all pretty distinct and bound to local landmarks as far as I can see. They had excellent voyaging technology as well, of course, but their culture doesn't revolve around migration and diaspora as much as the interconnected Pantheons of Polynesia. For Melanesia, I'm not sure, since I'm mainly informed about Fiji, which is variously counted towards either Melanesia or Polynesia, and is thus obviously an absolute melting pot. In general, though, "Melanesia" has several migratory strata of population (e.g. the Papuans and Melanaesians on New Guinea), so even if a unified Melanesian Pantheon made sense (which, in spite of my lack of information outside Fiji, I doubt), it probably wouldn't be the only on kicking around on those islands. For the moment, the Oceanic groups beside the Polynesian complex that I have looked into and think are likely future projects remain the Chamoru of Guam and the Marianas (Panthein name, as stated, Taotaomo'na) and the Fijians of, well, Fiji (Pantheon name Kalou-Vu). If anyone is well-versed in other Oceanic Pantheons, I love them very dearly, and am always excited to learn more, so feel free to message me about any such Oh, and of course, the indigenous Pantheons of Taiwan also belong to this cultural complex of "Austronesians", though I doubt there's enough on those in Western languages for us to approach any of them. But again, I love being proven wrong.

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              • #22
                That's more or less what I assumed. I figured that Polynesia was probably fairly unusual in that regard.

                The Kalou-Vu are the only pantheon from Melanesia or Micronesia I know anything about. They're quite cool, though, so I'm glad to see that they're on your bucket list. Besides them, the only deity from those regions I know of is Hatuibwari, and I only know about him because he was featured in a children's book about dragons I had as a kid. (Not the best source, I'm aware.) I'd still love to see him at some point, given what a truly strange figure he is. I'd also love to see a pantheon for New Guinea, though all my searching in regards to one has turned up zilch.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                  That's more or less what I assumed. I figured that Polynesia was probably fairly unusual in that regard.

                  The Kalou-Vu are the only pantheon from Melanesia or Micronesia I know anything about. They're quite cool, though, so I'm glad to see that they're on your bucket list. Besides them, the only deity from those regions I know of is Hatuibwari, and I only know about him because he was featured in a children's book about dragons I had as a kid. (Not the best source, I'm aware.) I'd still love to see him at some point, given what a truly strange figure he is. I'd also love to see a pantheon for New Guinea, though all my searching in regards to one has turned up zilch.
                  New Guinea probably has a bunch of Pantheons, actually, for the reasons I mentioned. Really now, though, I'm almost a bit insulted that we drop a shiny new Pantheon for you guys, and all I get asked about are the ones we haven't done (yet).

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                  • #24
                    It's because you've done such a complete and thorough job of explaining the pantheon, that all my questions were answered within the PDF itself!

                    As for my commentary on the Enduri, I really like them. I think my favorite Enduri is probably Zhegulu, the hedgehog goddess. She's just adorable and badass at the same time.

                    Why do you think it is such a large percentage of the Enduri are female, given that women are still to some degree restricted in their culture? The pantheon reads like the deities of a matriarchal people, but they're really not. Any hypotheses as to why that is?

                    Also, what would you say the Enduri's relationship with the Tanrilar would be like?

                    Finally, are the smaller aspects/incarnations of Yeluri something straight out of the myth, or are they something you came up with to serve as adversaries to face in gaming terms?

                    In all seriousness, I apologize for getting off track. You did an amazing job with the Enduri, and I'm just exceedingly excited over the bright future that seems to be coming in regards to your work. I love learning about obscure mythologies, and I think these projects are going to be a wonderful resource, both in terms of gaming and in terms of teaching about these cultures and mythologies in an accessible and enjoyable way. I would not run the game without them, and I would insist on using them as a player (my flagship character I have planned is a Scion of Xhuuya.) As someone who is fascinated by mythology, and would like to be inclusive of such underrated legends in my own creative work someday, I'm thrilled that you're doing this and doing this for free on top of it. Thanks so much to both of you for your efforts.
                    Last edited by Wannabe Demon Lord; 10-24-2018, 06:35 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                      It's because you've done such a complete and thorough job of explaining the pantheon, that all my questions were answered within the PDF itself!

                      As for my commentary on the Enduri, I really like them. I think my favorite Enduri is probably Zhegulu, the hedgehog goddess. She's just adorable and badass at the same time.

                      Why do you think it is such a large percentage of the Enduri are female, given that women are still to some degree restricted in their culture? The pantheon reads like the deities of a matriarchal people, but they're really not. Any hypotheses as to why that is?

                      Also, what would you say the Enduri's relationship with the Tanrilar would be like?

                      Finally, are the smaller aspects/incarnations of Yeluri something straight out of the myth, or are they something you came up with to serve as adversaries to face in gaming terms?

                      In all seriousness, I apologize for getting off track. You did an amazing job with the Enduri, and I'm just exceedingly excited over the bright future that seems to be coming in regards to your work. I love learning about obscure mythologies, and I think these projects are going to be a wonderful resource, both in terms of gaming and in terms of teaching about these cultures and mythologies in an accessible and enjoyable way. I would not run the game without them, and I would insist on using them as a player (my flagship character I have planned is a Scion of Xhuuya.) As someone who is fascinated by mythology, and would like to be inclusive of such underrated legends in my own creative work someday, I'm thrilled that you're doing this and doing this for free on top of it. Thanks so much to both of you for your efforts.
                      Everyone loves Zhegulu. She's a starlight hedgehog masquerading as a flower. Like, it's literally impossible to dislike that concept.

                      In part, that's me cheating a little bit by emphasising older, written sources over more modern ethnographic accounts, because these days, many of the girls have been replaced by male forms of themselves the way Abka Hehe has. Calling widow burials "being to some degree restricted" is creative, but I agree that one problem is that for the time before the Qing Dynasty, most of our sources on Jurchen culture come from outsiders, so there's bound to be some skewing of information. In general, though, I think there's just a different understanding of women and their role; in a way, the individual (if something like that even exists in the clan structure of the Manchu) is less continuous here than in other societies. Unmarried maidens and shamans are almost like a different "species" than matrons and widows, and it is the former ones who overlap with the divine. That's just the beginning of an explanation, though, and I think even after the research I've done I still lack sufficient understanding to offer the full one.

                      Highly complicated. The Enduri hate the Tengri (as I would call them with more of a Mongolian emphasis than mors did, but how exactly I'd conceptualise them I haven't decided yet) for conquering them twice. The Tengri hate the Enduri for conquering them twice. And yet at least on the side of the Enduri, there is also deep admiration. The Manchu were at least as strongly influenced by Mongolia as by China. Mongolian was made an official language in the Qing Empire together with Chinese and Manchu, and all inscriptions were trilingual. The Qing rulers changed the characters for both Jurchen and Mongol to remove the radical "dog" from them. In a way, they saw the Mongols as a brother people - a brother one had a stormy history with, but family nonetheless. If the Tengri share this aspect of the sentiment as well, I can't say without further research. Both of them probably do share a hatred of Tibet, though, since Tibetan Buddhism ate both of their traditional religions.

                      Those are totally canonical! I rarely make up stuff like that

                      No need to apologise! I was just teasing I think changing topic lies in the nature of conversation, so I'm definitely not one of those "stay on topic or get banned"-advocates. I'm incredibly happy to hear how highly you esteem our work though, and can only give you a big thank you right back

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                      • #26
                        Awesome! I'm very glad to hear that.
                        Here's another question, concerning your next project:
                        Have you done any research on the Kwakiutl pantheon, which I'm aware is closely related to the Sga'na Qeda's and has a lot of overlap with them. It does, as I understand it, have several deities which are distinctly Kwakiutl, like Kumugwe and Winalagalis. How would you go about in terms of linking the two pantheons or keeping them separate? Do you think it would be acceptable to have them as two pantheons that share a purview, like the Manitou and the Orenda?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                          Awesome! I'm very glad to hear that.
                          Here's another question, concerning your next project:
                          Have you done any research on the Kwakiutl pantheon, which I'm aware is closely related to the Sga'na Qeda's and has a lot of overlap with them. It does, as I understand it, have several deities which are distinctly Kwakiutl, like Kumugwe and Winalagalis. How would you go about in terms of linking the two pantheons or keeping them separate? Do you think it would be acceptable to have them as two pantheons that share a purview, like the Manitou and the Orenda?
                          I don't even think it's acceptable to mesh the Manitou and Orenda like that, but that is another story. Questions about the Pacific NW, however, I must refer to Watcher

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                            Have you done any research on the Kwakiutl pantheon, which I'm aware is closely related to the Sga'na Qeda's and has a lot of overlap with them. It does, as I understand it, have several deities which are distinctly Kwakiutl, like Kumugwe and Winalagalis. How would you go about in terms of linking the two pantheons or keeping them separate? Do you think it would be acceptable to have them as two pantheons that share a purview, like the Manitou and the Orenda?
                            Save in very specific situations we will probably avoid meshing different cultural groups together, even if they have a similar-ish Pantheon for our projects. As an outsider to the cultures we work on, it would make me very nervous to conflate two culture's religious figures together.

                            Reading through what I can find on Kwakiutl myth and folklore, I can't see anything that jumps out as an overlap asides from both having a 'Raven' figure. But, Ō'meaL and Xhuuya seem to have different cosmological roles, and personalities from the quick read I just did of some Kwakiutl myths. Who do you see as a possible overlapping figure? I can probably answer your question on how to handle the situation with that!


                            Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                            The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann.

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                            • #29
                              The (admittedly not so great) internet sources I'd used for the Kwakiutl seemed to indicate that they had Tia as a god/titan as well. They also listed several other deities who were supposedly of Haida origin, but Tia was the only one I'd heard of. It wasn't clear for the others whether they were imported gods in the sense that they were deities shared by the Haida, or if they had, in a more literal sense, come from Haida lands in the context of the myth. I would not be surprised at all if those sources were faulty though, they were informal, to say the least. As for Xhuuya, I knew that the Kwakiutl had a Raven, but I didn't know how similar to or distinct from Xhuuya Ō'meaL was, or even that his name was Ō'meaL.

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                              • #30
                                This is really impressive, you've done great work

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