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  • #61
    I'm sure there are some people here and there that syncretize entities from across pantheons too, even if not in numbers enough to make a shared mantle or true myth. Like some random person making a left turn at Albequerque and thinking that Amaterasu and YHWH are the same entity despite there being no connection really.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Thrythlind View Post
      "Why does history look the same?" is a question that takes apart every urban fantasy that assumes things are more or less the same as our current world. Dresden Files, Marvel, DC, Sanctuary, Chronicles of Darkness, World of Darkness....in none of these settings should the world have countries and cultures recognizable to us. History should have gone off in very different directions but it didn't. The only urban fantasy I can think of that gets away with this is Shadowrun, barely, by having magic absent for all of recorded history up until the awakening.

      The Masquerade and the broad strokes of history remaining are both equally silly. For that matter, having a Masquerade does nothing to fix the problem with history.
      You mentioned here again and again that Chronicles of Darkness are breaking 'Great Masquarede' - and it's simply not true. I will move this subdiscussion to CoD forum but clearly you do not know CoD setting enough. ( To other game lines and comic books - I would assert they should break from world design. Only CoD is made the way not to break it. )

      Topic on this particular sub-topic -
      Should Chronicles of Darkness broke 'Grand Masquerade' trope in it's history?



      My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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      LGBT+ in CoD games

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      • #63
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

        You mentioned here again and again that Chronicles of Darkness are breaking 'Great Masquarede' - and it's simply not true. I will move this subdiscussion to CoD forum but clearly you do not know CoD setting enough. ( To other game lines and comic books - I would assert they should break from world design. Only CoD is made the way not to break it. )

        Topic on this particular sub-topic -
        http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/1276188-should-chronicles-of-darkness-broke-grand-masquerade-trope-in-it-s-history"]Should Chronicles of Darkness broke 'Grand Masquerade' trope in it's history?[/URL]
        Okay, literally no part of Thryth's post implied that CoD broke their Masquerade. They were stating that even with an attempt to keep hidden, CoD should not look like our world. No Urban Fantasy should, nor should any Superhero setting at all.


        Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

          Okay, literally no part of Thryth's post implied that CoD broke their Masquerade. They were stating that even with an attempt to keep hidden, CoD should not look like our world. No Urban Fantasy should, nor should any Superhero setting at all.
          And this is confusing me - if Masquerade is intact - then activity of fantastical beings on populationis marganalized - and then World works like our real world.


          My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ through Ages
          LGBT+ in CoD games

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          • #65
            The way it works is that people know the supernatural exists, but the supernatural still prefers to mostly keep to themselves, so the common person may never actually see something supernatural, preferring to live in the fringes of society, or do their best to blend in. Not out of any need to maintain a masquerade, but because they simply don't want to draw the attention. Of course, some simply don't care, like, according to the core book, you have centaurs roaming the Great Plains of America, and the Amazons are an actual tribe who are highly sought after as mercenaries and bodyguards.

            Also, assume every historical event with a mythological retelling, like the Illiad, or King Arthur, likely happened as according to the mythical retelling
            For example, Alexander the Great might very well have been an actual scion of Zeus like he claimed.
            But in most conflicts, both sides likely would have had Scions that canceled out, leading to the same broad strokes
            Last edited by The Eternal Keeper; 12-23-2018, 01:37 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by The Eternal Keeper View Post
              The way it works is that people know the supernatural exists, but the supernatural still prefers to mostly keep to themselves, so the common person may never actually see something supernatural, preferring to live in the fringes of society, or do their best to blend in. Not out of any need to maintain a masquerade, but because they simply don't want to draw the attention. Of course, some simply don't care, like, according to the core book, you have centaurs roaming the Great Plains of America, and the Amazons are an actual tribe who are highly sought after as mercenaries and bodyguards.

              Also, assume every historical event with a mythological retelling, like the Illiad, or King Arthur, likely happened as according to the mythical retelling
              For example, Alexander the Great might very well have been an actual scion of Zeus like he claimed.
              But in most conflicts, both sides likely would have had Scions that canceled out, leading to the same broad strokes
              It's been flat out stated that Julius Caesar was definitely a Scion of Aphrodite, as he claimed.


              "We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
              Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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              • #67
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                And this is confusing me - if Masquerade is intact - then activity of fantastical beings on populationis marganalized - and then World works like our real world.
                If you're going to assume "But the Gods are real-" would change history, then CERTAINLY the Vampires and such being real, no matter if they try to keep hidden, would change history. All it takes is one Mage who decides "FUCK this noise, I'mma do what I want", and that would cause ripples.

                So you're telling me that throughout ALL of CoD's history, this Masquerade is SO utterly foolproof and SO utterly flawless and SO absolute that it's NEVER broken and NEVER slips and this NEVER causes history to diverge from our Earth History?

                There's not a big enough emote for how silly that sounds to me. Eventually you have to go "Right this doesn't make any amount of sense if you think too hard, but we'd be here all day otherwise, just roll with it"


                Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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                • #68
                  Remember: All that is needed for a conspiracy to unravel is one single person part of it disagreeing with it

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                    If you're going to assume "But the Gods are real-" would change history, then CERTAINLY the Vampires and such being real, no matter if they try to keep hidden, would change history. All it takes is one Mage who decides "FUCK this noise, I'mma do what I want", and that would cause ripples.

                    So you're telling me that throughout ALL of CoD's history, this Masquerade is SO utterly foolproof and SO utterly flawless and SO absolute that it's NEVER broken and NEVER slips and this NEVER causes history to diverge from our Earth History?

                    There's not a big enough emote for how silly that sounds to me. Eventually you have to go "Right this doesn't make any amount of sense if you think too hard, but we'd be here all day otherwise, just roll with it"
                    This, right here, is the basis of my assertion - there is literally NO way that all of the Pantheons of Scion, and all the mythical beings of the CoD, really exist, and yet the world of today looks exactly the same. It's arrogant to assume that the Abrahamic religions would crush everything, unreasonable to presume that no-one ever got video of a centaur, and ridiculous to state that the Vampire masquerade never gets torn open by some insane/anarchistic/Machiavellian individual for all to see at some point in history.

                    Of course, it also bears repeating that the CoD world ISN'T the Scion world, and that there is NO masquerade in the Scion world. Gods interfere, and always have, in mythic stories from all over the world. There is no reason to think they would stop, walk off the stage, and leave things to go the way they did in the real world.

                    I understand that the game developers don't want to create an "official" alternate history, because that will always run afoul of "No, it wouldn't be like that, it would happen THIS way" arguments from the readers. I get that there are limits to the amount of time they want to spend with that when each group would change things in a different way. The onus is on the ST's and players to do things the way that they want. It's work, but running any long-term game is, no matter the system you use.

                    If you choose to simply hand-wave it away, that's up to you. But I think the opportunities for changes, alternate world-building, and continuing the myths through history, are too great a gold mine to leave untouched.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                      So you're telling me that throughout ALL of CoD's history, this Masquerade is SO utterly foolproof and SO utterly flawless and SO absolute that it's NEVER broken and NEVER slips and this NEVER causes history to diverge from our Earth History?

                      There's not a big enough emote for how silly that sounds to me. Eventually you have to go "Right this doesn't make any amount of sense if you think too hard, but we'd be here all day otherwise, just roll with it"
                      No, I'm saying that beside one mage that want's to spill the beans, you have 99,9% rest of their society interested in sustaining Masquerade. In this 99,9% you have Mind and Time Masters that can undone what the first guy done - even to whole towns. Breakings of Masquerade happens - there are just always interested mages in fixing and sustaining it again. From my understanding, mages are best analogy to Gods of Scion game in their powers.

                      And we here only talk about mages - other supernaturals have in-build mechanics sustaining Masquerade be they very existence:

                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      • Vampires are not captured on digital media and can use Blood to act physically as humans.
                      • Werewolves ( Uratha ) create Lunacy that makes you forget them.
                      • Mages ( Awakened ) magic makes you forget it ( or even erase it in the first place ).
                      • Beasts powers are only 'dream-like' to target.
                      Those inner powers seems a bit analogical to Fatebinding for Gods - Fatebinding makes Gods strive NOT TOO interact with humans. It's not erasing their existence from minds of mortals - but making Gods naturally trying not to work with humans that are not really exceptional in the first place and fitting particular Gods Myth, so mortals will not 'poison' it.

                      And to dwell deeper in to parallel - not too mention that in CoD particularly Masquerade maybe more than simply 'we do not talk about this maters' by particular monsters - more, it seems to be wiring people for in this world, on most fundamental levels. ( Analogical to Gnosticism based setting. )

                      Originally posted by Michael View Post
                      Additionally, CofD quite often goes with something that isn't really a Masquerade in the traditional sense and into something closer to gnosticism. The Supernatural isn't something external to humanity that needs to hide, it's deeply integrated into it. That people don't notice the God-Machine isn't a sign of how hidden it is, it's a sign of how deeply compromised humanity is.

                      Further, it's not straightforwardly true. I mean, it's suggested that most people have experienced something. The problem is that Humanity as a whole isn't aware of the Supernatural in a coherent manner. Lots of individuals and organisations know some stuff, bits and pieces.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-23-2018, 11:36 PM.


                      My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                      LGBT+ through Ages
                      LGBT+ in CoD games

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by unnatural1 View Post
                        It's been flat out stated that Julius Caesar was definitely a Scion of Aphrodite, as he claimed.
                        Yet, he was not believed to be. Wording in Scion: Origin points to him working as 'they think I'm brilliant general, not believing I'm servant of the gods - well, will work with that then'. I.E. He was part of Masquerade, having interior motives, using general situation in Republic for attaining divinity.

                        Direct quotes from Origin:
                        Originally posted by 'Scion Origin, page 24
                        Caesar’s campaign in Gaul wasn’t a dubiously legal quasi-war, it was a one-Scion campaign of annihilation and deification by the self-professed Son of Venus against the Gods of the Sacred Shrines. The Theoi killed most of the Nemetondevos while the Romans enslaved their worshippers, and Caesar finally attained the requisite deeds needed to complete Divus Iulius’ apotheosis after mortal death.


                        My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                        LGBT+ through Ages
                        LGBT+ in CoD games

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          Yet, he was not believed to be. Wording in Scion: Origin points to him working as 'they think I'm brilliant general, not believing I'm servant of the gods - well, will work with that then'. I.E. He was part of Masquerade, having interior motives, using general situation in Republic for attaining divinity.
                          I think you may be misreading that section Wyrd, what the authors are implying by their use of "wasn't" in that sentence is not that there was a Masqurade concealing this fact, but that it was different from our real world. It is saying that the Roman ethnocide of the trans-alpine Gauls was more than what it was in our world, that it had a further divine implication as a result of the historical action. This divine implication was even believed in our real world. The people thought Caesar had divine backing, they knew they were engaging in religious conflict, that's why all the cult centers and nemetons were destroyed. 'They' actually did believe he was a direct descendant of Venus, his entire family line was, it is a major feature of Roman history for the period.

                          Even in our real world, the Julius Caesar was given divine backing from the perspective of the Romans, he was believed to have undergone Apotheosis in our real world. Real life Romans believed this, there was an entire major religious cult about it, the existence of which was one of the main reasons why the Roman Empire had issues with Judaism and Christianity. (for their refusal to accept the deified Emperors as Gods and thus, from the Roman perspective, refusing the authority of the Roman state)

                          I mean, we have Word Of God on this matter, Neall as the head developer of Scion has flatly said that there is no Masqurade in Scion. You are welcome to argue with him, but... I mean, it's his product, and he is including sections in upcoming books to help people put the Masqurade back in the game, which suggests that it is not there in the first place.

                          I am really terribly sorry for all of this confusion, but I believe you are only person who is reading the core books from this perspective, and the developers of the game did not write it with a Masqurade in mind. You are of course free to implement one, but you are getting something from the text that the authors of the text intentionally did not put in.
                          Last edited by Watcher; 12-24-2018, 02:25 AM.


                          Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                          The Šiuneš, The Enduri, The Sgā’na Qeda’s, The Abosom, Lebor Óe In Dea, The Zemi, Nemetondevos: Revised, and Mysteries of the Otherworld.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            • Vampires are not captured on digital media and can use Blood to act physically as humans.
                            • Werewolves ( Uratha ) create Lunacy that makes you forget them.
                            • Mages ( Awakened ) magic makes you forget it ( or even erase it in the first place ).
                            • Beasts powers are only 'dream-like' to target.
                            This brings to mind something interesting in regard to Scion.
                            See for as much as the various supernatural denizens of CoD have means (passive or active) for enforcing a "masquerade" in Scion you see the exact opposites where you have unavoidable mechanical elements in the game that immediately shatters any possibility of a "masquerade".

                            First you have the Legend score.
                            When you arrive to the tier of Hero you gain a Legend score that go from 1 (at the beginning) to 4 after that you get at the Demigod tier and then at the God tier for a legend score up to 12 (think the Trimurti of the Deva or Zeus of the Theoi).
                            Now we only have the rules for Legend up to 4 (for now) so lets look at that.

                            • Remarkable. The Scion’s Deeds are spoken of among her cult and the neighborhoods. Her power begins to grow, but she’s barely capable of anything resembling true power. 1 Boon.
                            •• Well-known. Among her chosen people and select others, the Scion’s name is often spoken of. 2 Boons, +1 Calling dot.
                            ••• Celebrated. More than talked-about, the Scion’s Deeds are emulated. At this level, she develops an omen, a cosmetic supernatural effect that marks her nascent divinity whenever she imbues or spends Legend: flaming eyes, a spinning disc of gold, a flock of ravens, or something without true mechanical weight (though using Stunts to play off them is appropriate). This omen manifests whenever she imbues or spends Legend. She also gains a +1 Enhancement to the Attitude of any worshipper of her pantheon. 3 Boons.
                            •••• Famous. YouTube videos, Wikipedia pages, magazine covers, instant recognition in a religion — at this level, the Scion begins to amass cultural inertia. She is changing the World through invention, discovery, or some other mighty Deed that imprints her identity on the consciousness of humanity. 4 Boons, +1 Calling dot.

                            So i'd say that at Legend 4 with your own Wikipedia page any pretense at a masquerade is pretty futile.

                            Second you have Fatebindings.
                            Now you list it as a reason or a way for the gods (including Heros and Demigods) to hide their nature so as to evade fatebindings. Now this isnt really false except that it is impossible to avoid Fatebindings entirely.
                            Fatebindings are ... mortals being added to the legend you are forming. These can be secondary characters that will help or hinder you in your adventures. These people will also become more knowns as they become part of the legends that are told about you.
                            At Hero, the effects of having Fatebindings are almost entirely positive. Now we know that as you grow stronger and more legendary fatebindings become more ... well binding and start to direct your legends in ways you may not want. That is the reasons the Gods avoid it. But avoiding fatebindings doesnt mean hiding themselves it just mean either limiting interactions or ensuring that interactions they have make sense for their legend so that nothing knew gets started.
                            Now it is still unknown how exactly (both mechanicaly and narratively) fatebindings affect the Scion at Demigod and God tier.

                            Now because of these, i think it is almost impossible for any scion to hold a "masquerade" for any tier beyond the Origin.


                            Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 3 year old daughter and a 2 years old son and now a beautiful new baby.

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                            • #74
                              Not to mention - isn't it counterintuitive to play a game about Gods and legends, and then hide them and presume they are essentially irrelevant to history? If I play Champions, it's because I want a superhero game, not a game about normal folks no-one has heard of.

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                              • #75
                                So, as other people have said, my statement was pulling other realities where we have a modern map that resembles very much the real world with familiar names like Europe and Asia and yet supernatural powers and entities have existed since before written history. Every one of those settings is highly unlikely, infinitesimally possible. The only reason they are plausible in fiction is because we have issues with imagining what the world would look like instead with languages that never developed, continents named. Different cultures coming out on top, and the like. It is a lot less work on the author to assume that 0.000000000000000000000000001% chance that the public geo-political and social arrangement would come out so recognizable. In addition, if someone decided not to go with that and go with the more logical premise of just ignoring written history and creating their own then people will fail to connect the world setting as our own Earth.

                                That was the gist of my statement. You countered a statement I never made, which was that the CofD and WoD world settings have broken Masquerades and proceeded to point out all the ways that various magical types had ways of concealing the truth from humanity at large. When it was pointed out I never said such a thing you responded that

                                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                                And this is confusing me - if Masquerade is intact - then activity of fantastical beings on populationis marganalized - and then World works like our real world.
                                And here is the thing. The very act of maintaining a Masquerade would, by necessity force history on different paths because the only way it works when an author does it with a fictional setting is because we have an awareness on the way things actually went (as filtered through numerous secondary and primary sources which may or may not have been altered for various political reasons down through the centuries.). A bunch of vampires or mages in 1065 aren't going to know that William the Conqueror is supposed to invade England so if he comes close to exposing them, he might not survive to do so.

                                And that's not going nearly far enough and also discounts the fact that in both WoD and CofD, and many other urban fantasy settings, the concept of a Masquerade is very recent, within 1000 to 1500 years in establishment, and sometimes something not all groups care about equally.

                                Scion gets around this logical stretch of the imagination by the fact that in Scion history literally can be retroactively changed to accommodate the myth of a new god or pantheon.And further more, that doing so does not invalidate any other mythical history even if it seems like they should.

                                The bundling of layered realities in Scion is such that if you have a mortal worshiper of the Netjer and a mortal worshiper of the Aesir and a mortal worshiper of the Kami; not scions, just normal people; and compared them then metaphysically you would find they had extremely different natures and were quite alien to each other. In an extreme sense, it is entirely possible that their physical make-up, the arrangement and function of their organs, is entirely different from each other in cases where two pantheons have vastly different ideas about the way the body works. But, simultaneously, they are the same because of the overlapping of science and pantheons that accept it.

                                This is an example of a sort of reverse of the standard suspension of disbelief problem. A lot of times, the burden of improbability is such that we have trouble believing a thing. But with Urban Fantasies, it's a matter where the improbability is such an extreme factor that we just flat disregard it entirely in order to have the setting we want.

                                As a further note, there's a lot of room, deliberately so, in Scion and CofD both, for individual games to make their own decisions about what is and is not true.
                                Last edited by Thrythlind; 12-24-2018, 01:21 AM.

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