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  • Pantheon of Purity

    So, I have discussed this with some friends of mine and we have had a set of men who have tried to help us all improve our lives. But, what would it take to make them full fledged gods for a Pantheon of Purity?

    We have Fred Rogers who helped us to love one another.
    Steve Irwin helped us to learn to love nature.
    Carl Sagan who helped us to learn about the world and the universe.
    Bob Ross who helpd us to love art and beauty.
    There is also one living one, Levar Burton who helped a generation go out and to read.

    This is a solid idea for a Pantheon who espouses learning and love and beauty. I am just not able to stat them up. I also run into the thought of how to make beings who lived in our lifetimes as deities. Could they have just rushed up the chain so to speak?

  • #2
    I hate to be that guy, but I dont think that is how it works. You cant just pick people out of a hat to make gods, they need to have their history grow and be recounted as then becoming gods. Is both a mix of really important deed in the world and a mix of belief in their godhood from others. It not only alter the being to become godly, but also retroactively affect all his conections and stories to make sense form the fact they are gods. Which takes a lot of time to happen if they are creating their own pantheon. Less if you are part of a previous existing pantheon, as you just gravitate towards the already existing myths. For example, lets say Carl Sagan becomes a God. He can do that by: -> Being a Scion of some other God (Thoth, maybe) and suffer apotheosis as an Egyptian God. This would retroactevely alters Carl Sagan past in different ways depending on general belief of him. Maybe he is now believe to have been a son of Thoth instead of just his Chosen. Maybe he is actually Thoth`s brother, or incarnation. Considering egyptian Gods, probably all of them. -> He can have did some great deed that let people to believe he is beyond a man. This will take a hell of a time to happen, and would necessary to create (retroactively) a backstory of how he did that, while his feats probably expands. Science propagation is not good enough, maybe he literally fought a Titan of Mischief, of by science reached a different planet, or defeated other god with a scientific knowledge, and was able to do this because he was born under the right stars, or read a magic book, or studied until he achieve a higher level of scientific understanding. -> Or, lastly, have him do something cool, but not godly, and just let people retell this tale for a few centuries, and then it is now so overblow and with so much of backstory aggregated that now he is nothing less than a God. Like, once he was the Narrator on one of the most iconic Scientific TV shows of all time, few centuries later, he himself took a land of the dark ages into space age by teaching then all kinds of scientific knowledge, traveling, by foot (or wormholes), city by city, that all thanks from a gift of knowledge he received from himself from the future. All of them can be seeing of kinda of disrespectful if you are not careful, (specially to Carl Sagan, as he directly was against the overblow of stories) because they fundamentally change what made they awesome: the fact they were awesome humans. If Carl Sagan was a god of knowledge, I would expect that there was no need for the "Cosmos Update" at the end of it. But because he is a human, I love the "Cosmos Update" because mean he took his time and effort to improve in something that was already very good. Also, as much as I love Carl Sagan, and that is much, I dont think he is godly material. He is one the biggest Science Teachers of all time and arguably one of the biggest propagators of science, so he could become a god in a Confucious or Imhotep kind of way, but he would need to start being worshiped by his feats, and retroactively be made a god. Which would made himself very unhappy, certainly. I dont know the other people, so I cant talk about them. Summary: You cant just turn people into Gods, specially if you want to tie them together in a pantheon, which would need a cosmology, Titans and so on. But that doesnt mean you cant make a pantheon out of them, just not following the rules of apotheosis we understand so far. You could just say, they are a pantheon (maybe they are scions/gods from other different pantheons that got together for a common purpose, maybe they they are an ancient pantheon, mostly forgotten, that reincarnates every once in a while, maybe they dont want to explain and just are) and go on with it. I hope to not make you loose interest or end your fun. It is your game, and if you want a pantheon of modern people, just go on and do it.

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    • #3
      So, according to you, then that means that no PC can acheive godhood.

      At least not until centuries have passed.

      Which means that the final part of the trilogy of corebooks needs to take place in the far future and not in any modern day setting.

      Got it. thanks.

      Comment


      • #4
        Your idea is not bad, I would not use it, but it can be used to power up some other ideas of pantheons.

        First you have to have some kind of visitation. It may not be a visit from a god, can be a realisation or something like it. As result they became heroes, and their work and fame increase their legend gradually.

        At some moment their legend reached Demigod level, and that point it get a little confuse for 1e to 2e as there is no Demigod 2e so far. There may be a second visitation or similar, or at least a deed that took them to cress the barrier of immortality. Heracles turned into a Demigod on his death, so the same could happen to them, as they ascend to a higher level of conscience.

        Probably to godhood there is the same kind of “passage ritual”. For Dionisus it was worships acclamation that turned him a god, as he was already a Demigod since birth (or at least automatically promoted to Demigod once reached enough legend), related to his unnatural pregnancy (on his dad leg).

        If you just ignore the passage rituals you can bring them to godhood. I personally would say they can be raised to Demigod by death, like several Cesars did in their time. Godhood demand not just deeds but recognition by worshipers, and we don’t worship them, all we do is to live by their teachings.

        Anyway, guys like them would not accept to be turned into gods, they were not the kind of people that put themselves above others, and that’s the reason we cared for them. You need to be an egocentric to accept the worship necessary to became a god.

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        • #5
          I was under the impression that, in order to ascend, a being has to a) be directly descended from a deity, b) be directly chosen by a deity, or c) at least be some sort of supernatural being to start with. I didn't think that a run-of-the-mill mortal could just spontaneously gain power just because of fame or notoriety. I could be wrong, of course.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
            Anyway, guys like them would not accept to be turned into gods, they were not the kind of people that put themselves above others, and that’s the reason we cared for them. You need to be an egocentric to accept the worship necessary to became a god.
            This is not actually the case. Confucius from the Shen is not into Gods, but has been made into one against his will due to the way Apotheosis works in China. His writeup in Hero goes over this.


            Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
            The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
              I was under the impression that, in order to ascend, a being has to a) be directly descended from a deity, b) be directly chosen by a deity, or c) at least be some sort of supernatural being to start with. I didn't think that a run-of-the-mill mortal could just spontaneously gain power just because of fame or notoriety. I could be wrong, of course.
              The Scion can be chosen by a god and be raised without knowing.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                This is not actually the case. Confucius from the Shen is not into Gods, but has been made into one against his will due to the way Apotheosis works in China. His writeup in Hero goes over this.
                In this case, there is no reason to ascension.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                  In this case, there is no reason to ascension.
                  As I said, this is due to how Apotheosis works in China. As he was enshrined and actively worshiped, he becomes a God. His consent is not required in the matter. That's how it works for them. Look at the discussion in Hero, I believe Mendez, the author of the section, references this situation.


                  Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                  The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                    As I said, this is due to how Apotheosis works in China. As he was enshrined and actively worshiped, he becomes a God. His consent is not required in the matter. That's how it works for them. Look at the discussion in Hero, I believe Mendez, the author of the section, references this situation.
                    As we are talking about a home made pantheon, I would say anything is possible. For example ascension by pure worship, as happens on a few pantheons. On most western pantheons godhood is more about origin than acts, while the oriental have more examples of godhood by effort, like Confucius, Budah and Son Goku.

                    Goku apart, I think, not sure, that many of the immortals from Tao are ascended humans, but I might be wrong. Of course many of the immortals of Tao are Demigods, but it’s enough to became fully immortal.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thedonnie View Post
                      So, according to you, then that means that no PC can acheive godhood.

                      At least not until centuries have passed.

                      Which means that the final part of the trilogy of corebooks needs to take place in the far future and not in any modern day setting.

                      Got it. thanks.
                      Not what I said. The first option (sorry for the bad formatting, my internet screwed it up) gives a possibility that would take no more than the own life of Carl Sagan to turn him into a God, but it wouldnt be a new pantheon.

                      If they are mortals with no previous association with a previous mythology, a define cosmology, and a previous organized metaphysics, yeah, it will take a long while to fate to be rewritten around them.

                      But the PC`s are Scions (or denizens) which gain powers through an specific pre-estabilished metaphysical paradigm of each pantheon, which itself took centuries or milenia to be created through belief, facts and storytelling. The examples we got so far of "new" pantheons were cases were some form of previous pantheon or was re-edited (like Greek becoming Roman), which is more a matter of mantles than a new cosmology, and old pantheons giving origin to new pantheons (like the hypothesis that the Irish and Welsh pantheon might have an common ancestry from a previous Gaulish pantheon).

                      For 100% regular people becoming Gods on a new pantheon would take as long as it was necessary to create the other pantheons, which is to say decades if not centuries.

                      But if it is a homemade pantheon, feel free to do whatever you want and feel is best.

                      Also, to Mateus Luz, talking about unexpected ascension seems to happen to some people. Son Goku hardly counts as he was already a very weird creature from the get go (and in game terms seems to be a Titanspawn that was brought to the Gods side), but Confucious and Budha seem to be cases were the ascencion happen even outside of their own control.
                      But considering that the fate seems to be able to retroactively affecting how things were before, I can imagine that Budha became a God more or less when one of the Hindu Gods (not sure which, so dont gonna mention now) claimed that Budha was one of his incarnations (which, if it wasnt true, became true, at least true enough, as enough people believed in it). After that the many mantles of Budha, in their different versions, could have spawned from there.
                      Confucious in other hand seems to be an ancestral (or important figure) that has been venerated enough to be consacrated as a God, which seem like a natural path in a culture that focus so heavy in ancestral worship.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The path to ascension for PCs will vary from pantheon to pantheon and based on the culture rules for how such things work. China and Japan have active rules and cultures governing such things which will make it a bit easier to map the ascension process for people that want to go that way. It's just a matter of doing the research. Theoi ascension almost always seems to involve the death of the mortal part of a person (In Heracles case this is to the extent that he has been exalted to the status of god while at the same time appearing as a mortal shade in Hades in some stories. So apparently his mortality and immortality split into two entities). The small bits of hints I've heard seem to imply that death is a part of ascension for the Orisha as well, but I would not trust my word on that at all as I have little to no knowledge of that culture. The other Pantheons I have less knowledge of though in the Aesir case it almost seems to be a matter of "do they give you the apples or not?"

                        For people that want to form their own pantheon the matter is going to be much, much more difficult as they will have to form a creation myth which will become retroactively true. This doesn't necessarily mean a story about how they created the universe (as far as I know, the Tuatha don't have a creation myth, for instance), but which forms the established history of the "new" pantheon. Gods exist outside of normal space time, so while it would seem from outsider perspective that they might just barely have come into existence in truth they have now always been there.

                        So, unless the men in question become enshrined as gods under the culture rules of one pantheon or another, they are unlikely to create their own new pantheon for the simple fact that none of them are around to push the weird mythological stuff that is required. Anybody pursuing that as a third person is more likely to create a new pantheon that is based around themselves and their allies as adverse deifying another person.
                        Last edited by Thrythlind; 03-01-2019, 06:10 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

                          In this case, there is no reason to ascension.
                          Welcome to the wonderful world of trying to cram multiple mythic traditions into the same overall game mechanics.

                          To the Greeks apotheosis is something someone with divine blood either achieves or fails to do. To the Chinese any enshrined ancestor is divine. To the Indians, apotheosis is merely the revelation of what has always been the truth. Etc, etc.


                          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                          • #14
                            All this said, I think trying to argue against the OP’s pantheon because it’s not how it works in the World is missing how Scion is meant to support unlimited settings. Yes, a Pantheon like the OP describes would not arise in the World, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t in another Scion Shard, and the OP shouldn’t feel restricted to develop for that!

                            I’ve got a Pantheon of American Gods inspired incarnations of modernity that I would never suggest make sense in the World, but are for a different Shard where the “Old Gods” didn’t “keep up” like they did in the World, for example!


                            Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                              All this said, I think trying to argue against the OP’s pantheon because it’s not how it works in the World is missing how Scion is meant to support unlimited settings. Yes, a Pantheon like the OP describes would not arise in the World, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t in another Scion Shard, and the OP shouldn’t feel restricted to develop for that!

                              I’ve got a Pantheon of American Gods inspired incarnations of modernity that I would never suggest make sense in the World, but are for a different Shard where the “Old Gods” didn’t “keep up” like they did in the World, for example!
                              Agree with you, there is no reason to say no to the OP idea. What we can think about is how it would make sense on our world.

                              On American Gods, the gods just pop up once someone believes he exists, so it’s just a matter of believing, even conceptual gods, like Media, exist, not because they are created this way, but because people personify them somehow when talk about them.

                              Using the American Gods idea, we can say that the god of science exists and have the form of Sagan. It’s not explicit if they remember the life of the person they represent, or even if they think they were the person, but it would explain all be default. Also, the power of the god is proportional to its believers or at least the ceremonies dedicated to them, like Easter get some power from Easter even not being dedicated to her properly. So the new gods can be demigods or even heroes (if they die another version of them pop up and assume the position).

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