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Monotheism and Multipersonas One God in Scion

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  • Monotheism and Multipersonas One God in Scion

    Disclaimer: This topic is about sensitive matter that can clash with some of readers beliefs. With everything about Scion, take it as mainly game material, not aiming to offend anyone. And it’s idea comes from book and TV series, so come to them in the first place.

    This topic is about my thoughts on Monotheism in Scion – and how to make it work inside the setting of the World. It’s probably can be going in areas of game hack, but should work in canon setting – or at least I think it should work. And it’s all base on the idea from Neil’s Gaiman ‘American Gods’ book and TV series.

    Idea is fairly simple – even Monotheists believe in various versions of their own One God. And each this depiction create new Incarnation of this God. This way is simply imagined with various ethnic groups having ‘their own’ Jesus, with their own ‘skin colour’, for example. Best shown in short clip from ‘American Gods’ TV series. ( From start up to 0:40 in video. )



    This also make it simple competition between One God ( Gods? ) and Old Pantheons – where Gods of Pantheons have typically 2-3 Incarnation in the World – where each One God have it’s dozen or more popular Incarnations.

    Other variant of that idea is that Saint Patrons are, de facto, lesser Incarnations of One God they serve.

    How do you see this idea working in the World of Scion?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-21-2019, 04:38 PM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    I would put the gods as a Monomyth, with different pantheons working as different mantles of the same gods, in this case, the one god would be a mantle (or a series of mantles) of the sky father (all father, high god, whatever you call). If you go thru the general idea the chiristians have of God is usually related to the Jupiter Optimus Maximus, and less like what the Jews and Muslims picture (something less human-ish).

    American Gods is the opposite of the monomyth, it’s the ultimate multi-myth, the gods don’t have mantles, they are more like avatars of a general idea and less a god... so once you have many different ideas of a god (or avatar, Demigod, whatever Jesus is) you have multiple images, and multiple avatars of the same idea. It work for Mr Wednesday that is different from the Odin, and possibly one of many avatars in US.

    Comment


    • #3
      Scion 2e already does feature Monotheistic religions.

      The Orisha, for one, would say they're not Gods, but champions of their one God.

      I think the Yazata are similar? I'm not a scholar, admittedly.

      Several of the various Hinduisms also believe themselves monotheistic, exalting one figure as higher than any others and the foremost face of the Ultimate Divine. I'm grossly simplifying it.

      Now as for what I think you meant, which is "How Would You Handle the Abrahamic Religions in Scion"...

      Well, first of all, I'd say that the Abrahamic religions definitely exist in the World. The books say that they do. And I'd say they're as real as any other religion in the book.

      I'd have its presence there, but rarely touch on it. Most of my players aren't sitting down after seeing the game pitch and going "Oh boy I wanna make Jesus 2.0!", so we can nicely sidestep that. I've had some Christian elements show up here and there. My players once had to retrieve a relic crucifix that a Sorcerer was using that gave access to the Order Purview, for instance.

      If a player wanted to make a Scion of one of the Abrahamic religions, I'd probably avoid them being a Scion of The Big Man Himself. And as for the whole thing of Denominations, I'd probably borrow from suggestions in a writeup by another forum member, MorsRattus. He wrote up a fan Pantheon of the Angelic Host (admittedly a bit more of a Jewish outlook on them than Christian or Islamic but I like the writeup), and he has this to say about denominations. Let me pull it up-

      The Malachim do not comment on Jesus, or indeed any specific figure from the past of the Abrahamic faiths, and their status as Scions. It is officially believed that doing so only causes more factionalism among the mortals. The Christian position is that Yeshua ben Yosef, called Jesus, was the born Scion of the Most High directly, and ascended to become part of the Name Unspoken. If this is true, it would be utterly unprecedented. There has never been official confirmation of it, nor official denial. Likewise, the status of Moses as a Chosen of the Name Unspoken directly has never been confirmed nor denied, though most Jews hold it to be true, and most Muslims believe the same of Mohammed.

      Officially, there is no answer. The Most High never speaks directly on matters of the past to mortals (and indeed generally does not contact mortals or even most angels directly), and the angels do not ever answer questions of doctrine that are not moral in nature - and even then, they tend to avoid any but the clearest moral lessons in the hopes that this will prevent further problems. What is known is that the Malachim will happily take Scions from among any faith that venerates the Most High.

      J
      ews, Christians and Muslims, all of any denomination, are chosen with no clear pattern or any favoritism. While smaller minority faiths produce fewer Scions, there have been Baha’i, Yezidi, Rastafari and Sikh Scions of the Malachim (if in lesser numbers, probably for demographic reasons), and even henotheists of other pantheons that hold the Most High to be greater than all other gods, though those Chosen are extremely rare

      So yeah, I'd have the Angels be messengers on occasion, but most of the presence of the Abrahamic Divine would be through their own Scions, who are almost entirely Chosen Scions (Angels interbreeding with humans is a big No No in most sects and denominations) and are told to go out and do good in the name of the Lord. The Angels themselves, if they do appear, will refuse to comment on any denominational thing.

      The Saints probably wouldn't be represented as Gods as the game refers to them (the Angels would be viable Patrons for Chosen Scions even if they themselves would not call themselves Gods), but they could possibly serve as messengers and Guides.

      Honestly, making each Saint and Angel an Incarnation of the One God not only sounds mechanically inelegant but also wrong on several denominational and theological levels.


      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think they should tie the Abrahamic religions into the Lovecraftian Mythos some how, that would be different and interesting.

        Alternate make "God" a mantle that any deity can use at any time and Jesus just a Sorcerer.

        Or just make the Abrahamic religions a mystery.

        Or make a Monotheistic Pantheon of Allah, Jehova, Yehewel, ect...

        Or a Neoplatonic Pantheon or Gnostic Pantheon with Aeons instead of Gods.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
          Scion 2e already does feature Monotheistic religions.

          The Orisha, for one, would say they're not Gods, but champions of their one God.

          I think the Yazata are similar? I'm not a scholar, admittedly.

          Several of the various Hinduisms also believe themselves monotheistic, exalting one figure as higher than any others and the foremost face of the Ultimate Divine. I'm grossly simplifying it.

          Now as for what I think you meant, which is "How Would You Handle the Abrahamic Religions in Scion"...

          Well, first of all, I'd say that the Abrahamic religions definitely exist in the World. The books say that they do. And I'd say they're as real as any other religion in the book.

          I'd have its presence there, but rarely touch on it. Most of my players aren't sitting down after seeing the game pitch and going "Oh boy I wanna make Jesus 2.0!", so we can nicely sidestep that. I've had some Christian elements show up here and there. My players once had to retrieve a relic crucifix that a Sorcerer was using that gave access to the Order Purview, for instance.

          If a player wanted to make a Scion of one of the Abrahamic religions, I'd probably avoid them being a Scion of The Big Man Himself. And as for the whole thing of Denominations, I'd probably borrow from suggestions in a writeup by another forum member, MorsRattus. He wrote up a fan Pantheon of the Angelic Host (admittedly a bit more of a Jewish outlook on them than Christian or Islamic but I like the writeup), and he has this to say about denominations. Let me pull it up-

          [/FONT][/COLOR]
          So yeah, I'd have the Angels be messengers on occasion, but most of the presence of the Abrahamic Divine would be through their own Scions, who are almost entirely Chosen Scions (Angels interbreeding with humans is a big No No in most sects and denominations) and are told to go out and do good in the name of the Lord. The Angels themselves, if they do appear, will refuse to comment on any denominational thing.

          The Saints probably wouldn't be represented as Gods as the game refers to them (the Angels would be viable Patrons for Chosen Scions even if they themselves would not call themselves Gods), but they could possibly serve as messengers and Guides.

          Honestly, making each Saint and Angel an Incarnation of the One God not only sounds mechanically inelegant but also wrong on several denominational and theological levels.
          Saints are already linked to certain Carribean Pantheons I believe.

          An interesting question, what about Santa Muerte who went from Christian Saint, to her own religion and is almost a Pantheon in her own right.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Saints were used by the Slaves to homer the Orishas (and Loas by extension) as they could not have any religious symbols other than catholic. So in Brazil Saint George is Ogun, Virgin Mary is Yemanja, things like that, but the Saints itself have no meaning other than the colours and general appearance.

            The Mexican have another level added, as they have some Aztec symbols added. Santa Muerte is a cross between many difference goddesses and the fact that in Spanish Death is female, so la Muerte, not a guy like Hades or Thanatos.
            Last edited by Mateus Luz; 05-13-2019, 07:57 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
              I think they should tie the Abrahamic religions into the Lovecraftian Mythos some how, that would be different and interesting.
              Ah, uh... No.

              No no no no.

              No.

              Nooooooooo.

              No no. That's a bad idea. Go sit in the corner and think about what you did. That... WOW, there aren't words I can use to describe how NOT OKAY that is.

              no.

              Like, okay, YOU may not care, but there ARE people out there for whom this religion is a very real and personal thing. And despite what TV and YouTube Personalities may say, a good number of them are shockingly good and decent people. Like... Holy FUCK, no!

              Alternate make "God" a mantle that any deity can use at any time and Jesus just a Sorcerer.
              This is ALSO a bad idea. Christians do enough appropriation of going "Yeah that shit is ours" without trying to imply it's correct.

              And any reasonable person would, if they had a gun to their head and were forced to put Christianity in their games, say that Jesus was a genuine Scion.

              Or just make the Abrahamic religions a mystery.
              This is probably the smartest idea, but it's still inferior to the current stance in the game of "They're a thing that exist in the World. MOVING ON-"

              Or make a Monotheistic Pantheon of Allah, Jehova, Yehewel, ect...
              ALSO no. That's a Nope right there, partner. At best you'd make the Almighty be a very distant Primordial that has many Names.

              Like, I'm sure you mean well but Jesus CHRIST there's a lot wrong with what you just proposed. Especially linking the Abrahamic Pantheon to the Lovecraft Mythos.

              The Lovecraft Gods are emphatically opposed to the idea of the Abrahamic God. That's part of the horror. That we're wrong, and the image of a benevolent caring creator is wrong, that in reality we're irrelevant and nobody who matters in the cosmic scale cares about us. Whereas, theoretically, the thing about the Abrahamic God is that yes, he's Great and Unknowable and So Beyond Us, but he cares about humanity. Cares enough to help those who ask and who live to better themselves and help others.

              Like... Holy SHIT I'm kind of aghast that that idea was even proposed.

              Like, Mask of the Mythos is coming out. And it's going to make the Lovecraftian Gods a distant uncaring Pantheon in a Shard where there are no other Pantheons or Gods, to preserve the feel. Because the Cthulu Mythos does not work on any level if there are Gods out there that DO give a shit about humanity.
              Last edited by Kyman201; 05-14-2019, 12:05 AM.


              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

              Comment


              • #8
                Changing a bit topic - How to represent Mother Goddes in Scion? Like Virgin Marry Mother Goddess. There is no Parent ( Mother ) Calling - and I'm not sure if there is really need to even make fan one, as it's really edge cases in Pantheons. I was thinking to represent Mother ( or Father ) God/dess as combination of Guardian ( cause they look over their 'children' ) and Healing ( cause they want to 'fix' them - and, most often, Mother Goddess are also about healing the wounds ). See Virgin Mary.
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-14-2019, 12:50 AM.


                My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                LGBT+ in CoD games

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  Changing a bit topic - How to represent Mother Goddess in Scion?
                  That's not a real archetype, that was an invention by some Victorian fuckwit and suggesting something like that seriously in modern Anthropological, Archaeological, or Sociological Circles will get you laughed out of the room.

                  Mary herself could conceivably (ha) be portrayed as a kind of deified figure in some circles, but I'd put her in the same book as the Saints.

                  That is to say, not a viable patron for a Scion in game terms, perhaps as a Guide more than anything.

                  Edit: As for how to represent "I birthed/created the entire Pantheon" type figures, the Creator Calling should cover that. Most of the Knacks in Hero towards Creator are like, building-focused, but there's no reason you CAN'T put in some support for that kind of thing.

                  Y'know, if your players want.

                  Fertility also has Boons that cover blessing a family line with healthy childbirths.

                  Though not something I'd give to Mary, offhand, because again I wouldn't make her a Patron.

                  NEXT QUESTION!
                  Last edited by Kyman201; 05-14-2019, 02:43 AM.


                  Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Okay, maybe the slight off-topic, but how you would represent Earth Mother Goddess by Callings? Virgin Mary, as concept, is descendent of those - and by this we have the same problem - i.e. no 'Parent Calling'. Question is also if being like that can be Titan and give Callings at the same time?


                    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                    LGBT+ in CoD games

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Okay, maybe the slight off-topic, but how you would represent Earth Mother Goddess by Callings? Virgin Mary, as concept, is descendent of those - and by this we have the same problem - i.e. no 'Parent Calling'. Question is also if being like that can be Titan and give Callings at the same time?
                      We do have a Parental Calling.

                      It's Creator. Maybe Lover, as Lover covers ALL kinds of Emotional bonds. I literally just told you this

                      And I already said: The concept of an Earth Mother Goddess isn't a real Thing that is as thematically strong as Neopagans insist it is. Again, made up by some jackass Victorian eager to paint the beliefs of the Primitive Brown People and other Savages with one brush. It does all these VERY REAL RELIGIONS THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVED IN AND STILL BELIEVE TO THIS DAY a massive disservice to insist on pushing them into a mold made by someone who wasn't interested in learning the truth, but in making a system of categorizing and pushing square pegs into round Earth Mother Shaped Holes.

                      Look if you're going to ignore when somebody answers your questions don't bother asking them.

                      As for Titans... Titans have different Callings from Gods. That's one of the major differences between them.


                      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                        Ah, uh... No.

                        No no no no.

                        No.

                        Nooooooooo.

                        No no. That's a bad idea. Go sit in the corner and think about what you did. That... WOW, there aren't words I can use to describe how NOT OKAY that is.

                        no.

                        Like, okay, YOU may not care, but there ARE people out there for whom this religion is a very real and personal thing. And despite what TV and YouTube Personalities may say, a good number of them are shockingly good and decent people. Like... Holy FUCK, no!


                        This is ALSO a bad idea. Christians do enough appropriation of going "Yeah that shit is ours" without trying to imply it's correct.

                        And any reasonable person would, if they had a gun to their head and were forced to put Christianity in their games, say that Jesus was a genuine Scion.


                        This is probably the smartest idea, but it's still inferior to the current stance in the game of "They're a thing that exist in the World. MOVING ON-"


                        ALSO no. That's a Nope right there, partner. At best you'd make the Almighty be a very distant Primordial that has many Names.

                        Like, I'm sure you mean well but Jesus CHRIST there's a lot wrong with what you just proposed. Especially linking the Abrahamic Pantheon to the Lovecraft Mythos.

                        The Lovecraft Gods are emphatically opposed to the idea of the Abrahamic God. That's part of the horror. That we're wrong, and the image of a benevolent caring creator is wrong, that in reality we're irrelevant and nobody who matters in the cosmic scale cares about us. Whereas, theoretically, the thing about the Abrahamic God is that yes, he's Great and Unknowable and So Beyond Us, but he cares about humanity. Cares enough to help those who ask and who live to better themselves and help others.

                        Like... Holy SHIT I'm kind of aghast that that idea was even proposed.

                        Like, Mask of the Mythos is coming out. And it's going to make the Lovecraftian Gods a distant uncaring Pantheon in a Shard where there are no other Pantheons or Gods, to preserve the feel. Because the Cthulu Mythos does not work on any level if there are Gods out there that DO give a shit about humanity.
                        I was teasing about the Lovecraft thing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

                          I was teasing about the Lovecraft thing.
                          Ah. In my defense you didn't give any indication. No smilie, no /s, nothing to show you were joking.

                          And I've been in the internet enough that someone suggesting that was shocking, but not enough to assume you were kidding


                          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                          Comment

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