Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Systematic Questions, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GODS HELP!

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    So 1) thank you to everybody helping me so far. About to ask more questions so hopefully you'll continue to help me slog through this.

    But 2) To everybody saying that this book isn't more confusing than Rifts and going on to espouse about the open endedness that throws people for a loop. That's not what I was referring to. I'm referring to the fact that this book reads like Exalted and Mage had a baby and then let Rifts teach it how to read and write.

    The game's freeform qualities are very intriguing (once I understood them), but actually understanding that that was the intention of the rules was the problem. Even Attributes are relabeled to give a different take on how to address them and then very little actual information on what the new system means when addressing how Arena vs Approach + Skill actually means. The games rules are spread out in a very bizarre way (skills are actually in the systems section, not the actual traits section, and the priority system for paths is muddled). I don't need a "A+B=C" map of every skill, knack or boon. I just need to be able to coherently navigate the book. Like the fact that the tier system of beings actually isn't explained on its own, it's part of the Crafts systems, and is still confusing since many rules about tiers refer to "more then 2 tiers" above being immune, but since there are only 4 tiers that would mean that only Gods are immune to mortals, or that the reference is meant to mean "2 or more" which is also insinuated.

    Anyhow, to my latest questions which are to the crunch of the game:

    Soft Armor (1) increases the difficulty of the Inflict damage stunt by 1
    Piercing lowers Soft Armor by 2

    Question 1) Does this imply that there can be multiple levels of soft armor? and if so Question 2) Would multiple levels count as new armor tags or the same one?


    Comment


    • #17
      Question 1: yes, in theory up to 3, but could be more if you have enough tags to use.
      Question 2: multiple tags, some tags counts as multiple tags as well, so... in the end saying it’s a tag that worth 3 tags or it’s 3 tags means the same.

      Comment


      • #18
        Now about all the confusion. Again, a little help from the guys with the main info highlighted would be nice.

        If you (like me) was reading Trinity first, and than went to Scion, it’s even worse. Trinity follow your idea of content distribution (at least mine).
        Second Chapter (first rule chapter) is Character Creation (the 1st chapter is flavour), describe all the skills, attributes and paths, than describe the Edges (kind of knacks, but more versatile).
        Third chapter is the Storypath System, basically the same as Scion, but, as the skills and attributes are already done, it’s more “straight forward” to applying them. Forth is focused on combat, health and dangers and fifth on

        As I read Trinity first, my understanding of the system is different of Scion, character creation and skills at different, the results are about the same, but still different (Scion have more skill dots, knacks are more powerful than edges, things like that), so my reading of Scion is more about flavour and finding differences than understanding.

        Than I go again about the differences... there are lots of “unnecessary” differences, like scale (humans are scale 1 in TC, and 0 on Scion), the workings of Paths (Trinity Paths have dots, Scion they don’t)... it annoys me more than it should, it’s like playing VtM and WtA (after reading CoD) they are the same but... no... they are compatible but... no...

        Honestly, I love Scion, I finish reading Origin cover to cover, but it is really confusing on many things... not something you use for RPG starters. Like it was mentioned, it’s much better for a person that knows how to play CoD and at least one of Fate, Hero System or Savage Worlds.

        Trinity, in the other hand, is a great book, I didn’t read cover to cover, but my understanding of the system is based on it, and I am much happier with it. It’s more flexible on character creation, the text is similar but a bit better, the chapters are much more objective... I think it’s more friendly to beginners...

        Comment


        • #19
          Rules Clarification on Combat:

          When Applying damage: 1) Unless Critical Stunt is applied only 1 dmg lvl or condition is applied

          and 2) That condition is determined by the damage type correct?

          i.e. If an Inflict Injury Stunt is applied using a fist: A Bruised, Injured, or Maimed health level can be taken up
          But if a sword is used only Injured and Maimed health levels are taken?

          Comment


          • #20
            Question 1: One attack = One Injury (unless you have a higher scale or critical)

            Question 2: No, the condition is defined by the target (yes, it’s kind of... ...weird) as long you have free spaces of the kind. The kind of damage just define the impact on armor and the description of the damage, not in the condition.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
              Question 1: One attack = One Injury (unless you have a higher scale or critical)

              Question 2: No, the condition is defined by the target (yes, it’s kind of... ...weird) as long you have free spaces of the kind. The kind of damage just define the impact on armor and the description of the damage, not in the condition.

              Clarify then please. Because the damage section has damage type indicators which seem to indicate what type of damage applies, and this is utterly confusing.

              Comment


              • #22
                Bashing and Lethal damage can both apply to any of the injury boxes... What differs is the kinds of conditions they can inflict... Bashing damage can inflict things like Nasty Bruise, Concussed Head and Broken Arm, while Lethal can inflict things like Shallow Cut, Deep Wound and Cut to Ribbons depending on the severity of the Injury Condition box being filled in... The associated penalty of -1, -2 etc then applies to actions that could conceivably be affected by that injury condition... For example, Crushed Hand would penalize an attempt to shoot a gun, but not to run away.
                Last edited by Samudra; 05-07-2019, 12:09 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hi, we just ran our first session this week end and my Storyteller had a hard time with this particular point you just talked about (we're not native english speakers and some paragraph aren't really clear.
                  On p. 123 of Origin (re downloaded today to be sure), the Lethal tag says "A weapon with this tag cannot inflict the Bruised or Battered Injury Conditions." On p. 121, "Any time the character takes damage, he must take an Injury Condition. His player chooses to take a Bruised, Injured, or Maimed Condition, if available. If none are available, he is Taken Out".
                  So if lethal can't make Bruised Injuries, it can only make Injured or Maimed Injuries. That's what my Storyteller understood and ruled for the session and I came here in hope of an official explanation.

                  Also: I explained him that, as I understand it, when an attack is resolved, if the defender make 1 success and has no armor, and the attacker make 1 success also, the defender take 1 Injury Condition (so a tie favors the attacker). My Storyteller and my co-player both found this rule extremely violent but that's what I think it says... and since we didn't find any clear example... I came for this too...

                  I read through these post but I'm still not sure if it answers my questions.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Burbankfr View Post
                    Hi, we just ran our first session this week end and my Storyteller had a hard time with this particular point you just talked about (we're not native english speakers and some paragraph aren't really clear.
                    On p. 123 of Origin (re downloaded today to be sure), the Lethal tag says "A weapon with this tag cannot inflict the Bruised or Battered Injury Conditions." On p. 121, "Any time the character takes damage, he must take an Injury Condition. His player chooses to take a Bruised, Injured, or Maimed Condition, if available. If none are available, he is Taken Out".
                    So if lethal can't make Bruised Injuries, it can only make Injured or Maimed Injuries. That's what my Storyteller understood and ruled for the session and I came here in hope of an official explanation.

                    Also: I explained him that, as I understand it, when an attack is resolved, if the defender make 1 success and has no armor, and the attacker make 1 success also, the defender take 1 Injury Condition (so a tie favors the attacker). My Storyteller and my co-player both found this rule extremely violent but that's what I think it says... and since we didn't find any clear example... I came for this too...

                    I read through these post but I'm still not sure if it answers my questions.
                    That is slightly poor word choice on the part of the book yes... Lethal damage can inflict -1 (Bruised) Injury conditions, it would just be a Condition like 'bleeding lip' or something instead of a literal bruise.

                    A tie does favour the attacker... if you match the Defence with your attack roll you my choose to automatically deal 1 Injury, and then use extra successes to add more Stunts on top of that (this is all assuming no Soft Armor, which increases the difficulty of inflicting Injury)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Samudra View Post

                      That is slightly poor word choice on the part of the book yes... Lethal damage can inflict -1 (Bruised) Injury conditions, it would just be a Condition like 'bleeding lip' or something instead of a literal bruise.

                      A tie does favour the attacker... if you match the Defence with your attack roll you my choose to automatically deal 1 Injury, and then use extra successes to add more Stunts on top of that (this is all assuming no Soft Armor, which increases the difficulty of inflicting Injury)

                      Except that explicitly is not what the book says?

                      The Injury conditions section explicitly say that you need to apply appropriate conditions to the damage being done, ( the book says narratively logical but what it means is you can's bruise an eye with a sword slash.

                      Bruised Category examples are Bruised ribs, Black eye and sprained ankle... all things that can be done with bashing damage. Injured are bashing and lethal, and Maimed is any type of damage.

                      The Weapons Section even says that a weapon with the Lethal Tag cannot inflict a Bruised or Battered Injury Condition.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
                        The Weapons Section even says that a weapon with the Lethal Tag cannot inflict a Bruised or Battered Injury Condition.
                        Hi, let me lay it out for ya!

                        Bruised is a bit confusing, I'll give you that, but refer to the Origin book (Page 120, talking about Injuries) where it says the following:

                        Except for Taken Out, characters don’t often get Injured or Maimed, they get Broken Arm or Crushed Skull. Be descriptive when applying these Conditions — weapons can only apply Injury Conditions that would be narratively logical.
                        Now, what can we infer from this?

                        One, it says that Injured and Maimed are Just Names for the different injury levels. From there, assuming you're not the kind of person who doesn't need to be told every little thing, we can reasonably infer that by extension, the BRUISED level injury condition is Just A Name.

                        More hint of this is, the thing you're citing notes that Lethal cannot inflict Bruised or Battered. Now if there were a Battered Injury Level, then maybe you could say that this bypasses it entirely.

                        However, there is not a Battered level. There's just Bruised, Injured, and Maimed.

                        So, to take away here... You can't leave "Heck Of A Shiner" or "Impressive Bruise" with a Knife, that has the Lethal tag. But you CAN inflict an injury such as "Dramatic Cut On The Cheek" or "Tis But A Scratch". Mechanically, these will still inflict -1 on relevant rolls, but they are -1 Conditions.

                        FURTHERMORE, let's just take a look down on the page...

                        Calculating Injury Conditions: Anyone can take the Bruised or Maimed Condition levels (or the equivalents thereof caused by weapons).
                        (Emphasis mine)

                        Hm, now, what we can infer from THAT is that weapons ARE in fact capable of inflicting injuries on all levels.

                        So yeah, your read is 110% wrong. The first hint should probably have been "If there are multiple readings of this rule and one is Fucking Stupid, maybe don't assume the one that's fucking stupid is correct".


                        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post


                          Except that explicitly is not what the book says?

                          The Injury conditions section explicitly say that you need to apply appropriate conditions to the damage being done, ( the book says narratively logical but what it means is you can's bruise an eye with a sword slash.

                          Bruised Category examples are Bruised ribs, Black eye and sprained ankle... all things that can be done with bashing damage. Injured are bashing and lethal, and Maimed is any type of damage.

                          The Weapons Section even says that a weapon with the Lethal Tag cannot inflict a Bruised or Battered Injury Condition.
                          It can't inflict a Bruised or Battered CONDITION.

                          Conditions are the labels/effects applied to the character at different severity levels.

                          The -1, -2 stuff is severity.

                          Lethal damage at the -1 level might be labeled "Flesh Wound" or "Scratch"

                          Bashing damage at the -1 level might be "Black Eye" or "Bruised"

                          You could not use a sword to inflict a "Concussion" and you could use a baseball bat to inflict a "Severed Hand"

                          The way you're reading the mechanics makes no sense and renders things so obviously unplayable that I feel it borders on being willfully ignorant. It feels a bit like you're trying to justify your dislike for the system by "proving" it's a bad system with rather ridiculously transparent misreadings.

                          If you don't like the system, fine. Just leave and focus on the systems you do like and leave those who enjoy this system to have their fun.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            For that matter. Injuries don't have to be physical.

                            You could have someone "Attack" you with a Persuasion flirting and give you a -1 "injury" of "Distracted" (in terms of social attacks I'd let players define the injury themselves. If they want the flirting to be successful, cool, if not they can choose some emotional label indicating how the flirting irritated them like "Annoyed.")

                            When that emotional injury is a concern then you suffer the -1 die to your roll.

                            Similarly "Terrified" could be an injury. "Confused" and so on.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              As to the formatting of the book.

                              I had little difficulty parsing either Mage the Awakening or Mage the Ascension. The biggest problem I had with Awakening (or whichever A the CofD game was) is that the first edition chose a font that made reading it physically tiring.

                              That's not a problem with Scion.

                              With Exalted, I don't feel like I understand much of anything of Exalted. I've made a character in both 2nd and 3rd editions. But I have no idea how their stats relate to their performance in game even after playing both versions. This may just be a personal blindspot because I don't much grok the setting either, but there's just so many interlocked layers of stuff in that it makes things confusing to follow. For further context I'm more than casually capable in use of Hero System such that I can use Hero System to mimic the mechanics of other games (it was a thought exercise, not something I'd actually play). I know people who quite enjoy it but also consider it heavily complex and very much not-simple.

                              As to Rifts.

                              Rifts was not exactly formatted poorly. I could pick up a Rifts book I'd never seen before and read through it with a mostly accurate expectation of how to find things in it. Rifts' failure was in systems. There were lots of tacked on sub-systems that just slowed game play down. It was passable in the 80s and early 90s but it quickly aged badly. Now, there are games that tolerate sub-systems quite well. Fate is built to accommodate subsystems, for example, and feels quite bland without them. But Palladium's systems aren't well integrated. They're kludgy.

                              Storypath is a far more elegant system. I'd put the complexity of the book somewhere south of Geist 1st edition probably around the level of either Werewolf game.

                              Mage systems required a lot more tinkering and experimenting to grok well (granted, I did that a long time ago so that experience may mean I handle other systems better now).

                              I found Scion systems to be intuitive, elegant, and flexible.

                              Mage systems were occasionally counter-intuitive in a way that once you figured it out it gave you no further problem.

                              Exalted makes me feel like I'm trying to get back into Magic the Gathering after 20 years of not playing and juggling about unfamiliar labels and mechanics.

                              Rifts is simple to understand and just very clumsy.

                              These are, of course, subjective responses. I like both Mage games, I've sort of had fun with Exalted. Rifts is frustrating as hell because the setting is interesting (same with some other Palladium games). But I tend to place Storypath as the superior game to all of them. It is, in fact, up with City of Mist and Fate in terms of my favorite systems.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Thrythlind View Post

                                It can't inflict a Bruised or Battered CONDITION.

                                Conditions are the labels/effects applied to the character at different severity levels.

                                The -1, -2 stuff is severity.

                                Lethal damage at the -1 level might be labeled "Flesh Wound" or "Scratch"

                                Bashing damage at the -1 level might be "Black Eye" or "Bruised"

                                You could not use a sword to inflict a "Concussion" and you could use a baseball bat to inflict a "Severed Hand"

                                The way you're reading the mechanics makes no sense and renders things so obviously unplayable that I feel it borders on being willfully ignorant. It feels a bit like you're trying to justify your dislike for the system by "proving" it's a bad system with rather ridiculously transparent misreadings.

                                If you don't like the system, fine. Just leave and focus on the systems you do like and leave those who enjoy this system to have their fun.


                                Again, I am going to repeat that that is not what is explicitly stated in the book!

                                Thank you though for actually managing to condescend and treating me so poorly that it did actually sour my mood for Scion, a game I am looking forward to experiencing.

                                Let me quote from the actual text so that we can be clear what I am referencing and then you can point out what my poor little 'willfully ignorant' mind is missing in the text that actually supports what any of you are saying:

                                "Characters gain special Conditions when injured, called Injury Conditions.

                                There are four general categories, corresponding to increasing levels of Complication severity: Bruised (-1), Injured, (-2), and Maimed (-4), beyond that you are Taken Out. Except for Taken out, characters don't often get Injured or Maimed, they get Broken Arm or Crushed Skull. Be descriptive when applying these conditions- weapons can only apply Injyry conditions that would be narrativly logical..."

                                There are then several charts go give examples about what might occupy each Injury Condition for Bruised, Injured, and Maimed. Absolutely no Lethal injury options are listed as Bruised sample Injury conditions.

                                The Weapon tag for Lethal is quote: "The weapon deals lethal damage, which can lead to serious injury. This tag allows for scratched cut or bleeding out Injury Conditions. A weapon with this tag cannot inflict the Bruised or Battered Injury Conditions.

                                So, forgive this poor and simple gamer for expecting my RULES section to be clear and concise, and a plea for help understanding an unclear book to actually gain some modicum of respectful aid, but this was a legitimate question, because unless every single rule in this book is just a narrative which means the rules are made up, the book doesn't matter and the GM... excuse me "storyguide" is just an idle observer.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X