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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    This one is simple once you get it. It’s all about forcing interpretation...

    You don’t fill the dots, you mark the correct position in the track. You start Va OOXOO Vb, if you use momentum to an activity related to the virtue A ou turn into OXOOO, if you do again you go XOOOO. If you then spend momentum to go to the other virtue you became OXOOO, do again and you go OOXOO, and again OOOXO and finally OOOOX.
    Also, if you spend a momentum to do an action related to any of the virtues, you get an extra die (in addition to the usual die from spending momentum).

    If you get XOOOO or OOOOX you are virtuous to the related virtue. When you are virtuous and spend momentum to reinforce the virtue you are virtuous, you get a 3rd extra die (in addition to the other 2, one from momentum and one from virtue)

    Virtuous (beside the extra dice) add an extra momentum anytime it is annoying to follow your virtue (as long you follow it). For example, if you should kill to fill your virtue and the opponent would be useful if not dead, you should gain a momentum for killing...

    So you get a bonus for following the proper interpretation...
    Last edited by Mateus Luz; 05-10-2019, 08:19 PM.

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  • JohanDracys
    replied
    Newest question:

    Virtues and Virtuous- Explain please?

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  • JohanDracys
    replied
    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
    There are Conditions and Complications. The conditions are Bruised Condition, Broken Arm Condition, Crushed Skull Condition, etc. Each condition have one of the 3 complications, -1, -2 or -4, that are named Bruised, Injured and Maimed.

    I know it’s... ...confuse... it’s confuse, but it’s described this way. You can have multiple Bruised conditions, if you get too many of them you have a Bruised condition that cause a Injured Complication. Honestly, Injury Condition and Injured Complication was MUCH worse, you know, if you have an a Injury you are Injured, but as they are technically different words, no confusion.

    Anyway, they also talk about Bruised, Injured or Maimed Conditions, but... it’s just to not say a “condition with complication” Bruised...

    There is also the “Condition Level”, but they are the “boxes” in the character sheet.

    It’s written in the most confuse way possible, but that’s the idea...

    Thank you. Every time I read it (and had someone else read it too), this was not actually clear. That actually helps me understand this a lot more, thank you for your patient and respectful aid.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Again, Trinity is better written because it doesn’t say “You can’t take the blank condition”, it just says “you get an injury that is adequate for the kind of damage caused. Also Bashing and Letal are not the kinds, you have Edge, Blunt, Balistic, Acid, etc...

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    There are Conditions and Complications. The conditions are Bruised Condition, Broken Arm Condition, Crushed Skull Condition, etc. Each condition have one of the 3 complications, -1, -2 or -4, that are named Bruised, Injured and Maimed.

    I know it’s... ...confuse... it’s confuse, but it’s described this way. You can have multiple Bruised conditions, if you get too many of them you have a Bruised condition that cause a Injured Complication. Honestly, Injury Condition and Injured Complication was MUCH worse, you know, if you have an a Injury you are Injured, but as they are technically different words, no confusion.

    Anyway, they also talk about Bruised, Injured or Maimed Conditions, but... it’s just to not say a “condition with complication” Bruised...

    There is also the “Condition Level”, but they are the “boxes” in the character sheet.

    It’s written in the most confuse way possible, but that’s the idea...
    Last edited by Mateus Luz; 05-08-2019, 08:30 PM.

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  • JohanDracys
    replied
    Originally posted by Thrythlind View Post

    It can't inflict a Bruised or Battered CONDITION.

    Conditions are the labels/effects applied to the character at different severity levels.

    The -1, -2 stuff is severity.

    Lethal damage at the -1 level might be labeled "Flesh Wound" or "Scratch"

    Bashing damage at the -1 level might be "Black Eye" or "Bruised"

    You could not use a sword to inflict a "Concussion" and you could use a baseball bat to inflict a "Severed Hand"

    The way you're reading the mechanics makes no sense and renders things so obviously unplayable that I feel it borders on being willfully ignorant. It feels a bit like you're trying to justify your dislike for the system by "proving" it's a bad system with rather ridiculously transparent misreadings.

    If you don't like the system, fine. Just leave and focus on the systems you do like and leave those who enjoy this system to have their fun.


    Again, I am going to repeat that that is not what is explicitly stated in the book!

    Thank you though for actually managing to condescend and treating me so poorly that it did actually sour my mood for Scion, a game I am looking forward to experiencing.

    Let me quote from the actual text so that we can be clear what I am referencing and then you can point out what my poor little 'willfully ignorant' mind is missing in the text that actually supports what any of you are saying:

    "Characters gain special Conditions when injured, called Injury Conditions.

    There are four general categories, corresponding to increasing levels of Complication severity: Bruised (-1), Injured, (-2), and Maimed (-4), beyond that you are Taken Out. Except for Taken out, characters don't often get Injured or Maimed, they get Broken Arm or Crushed Skull. Be descriptive when applying these conditions- weapons can only apply Injyry conditions that would be narrativly logical..."

    There are then several charts go give examples about what might occupy each Injury Condition for Bruised, Injured, and Maimed. Absolutely no Lethal injury options are listed as Bruised sample Injury conditions.

    The Weapon tag for Lethal is quote: "The weapon deals lethal damage, which can lead to serious injury. This tag allows for scratched cut or bleeding out Injury Conditions. A weapon with this tag cannot inflict the Bruised or Battered Injury Conditions.

    So, forgive this poor and simple gamer for expecting my RULES section to be clear and concise, and a plea for help understanding an unclear book to actually gain some modicum of respectful aid, but this was a legitimate question, because unless every single rule in this book is just a narrative which means the rules are made up, the book doesn't matter and the GM... excuse me "storyguide" is just an idle observer.

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  • Thrythlind
    replied
    As to the formatting of the book.

    I had little difficulty parsing either Mage the Awakening or Mage the Ascension. The biggest problem I had with Awakening (or whichever A the CofD game was) is that the first edition chose a font that made reading it physically tiring.

    That's not a problem with Scion.

    With Exalted, I don't feel like I understand much of anything of Exalted. I've made a character in both 2nd and 3rd editions. But I have no idea how their stats relate to their performance in game even after playing both versions. This may just be a personal blindspot because I don't much grok the setting either, but there's just so many interlocked layers of stuff in that it makes things confusing to follow. For further context I'm more than casually capable in use of Hero System such that I can use Hero System to mimic the mechanics of other games (it was a thought exercise, not something I'd actually play). I know people who quite enjoy it but also consider it heavily complex and very much not-simple.

    As to Rifts.

    Rifts was not exactly formatted poorly. I could pick up a Rifts book I'd never seen before and read through it with a mostly accurate expectation of how to find things in it. Rifts' failure was in systems. There were lots of tacked on sub-systems that just slowed game play down. It was passable in the 80s and early 90s but it quickly aged badly. Now, there are games that tolerate sub-systems quite well. Fate is built to accommodate subsystems, for example, and feels quite bland without them. But Palladium's systems aren't well integrated. They're kludgy.

    Storypath is a far more elegant system. I'd put the complexity of the book somewhere south of Geist 1st edition probably around the level of either Werewolf game.

    Mage systems required a lot more tinkering and experimenting to grok well (granted, I did that a long time ago so that experience may mean I handle other systems better now).

    I found Scion systems to be intuitive, elegant, and flexible.

    Mage systems were occasionally counter-intuitive in a way that once you figured it out it gave you no further problem.

    Exalted makes me feel like I'm trying to get back into Magic the Gathering after 20 years of not playing and juggling about unfamiliar labels and mechanics.

    Rifts is simple to understand and just very clumsy.

    These are, of course, subjective responses. I like both Mage games, I've sort of had fun with Exalted. Rifts is frustrating as hell because the setting is interesting (same with some other Palladium games). But I tend to place Storypath as the superior game to all of them. It is, in fact, up with City of Mist and Fate in terms of my favorite systems.

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  • Thrythlind
    replied
    For that matter. Injuries don't have to be physical.

    You could have someone "Attack" you with a Persuasion flirting and give you a -1 "injury" of "Distracted" (in terms of social attacks I'd let players define the injury themselves. If they want the flirting to be successful, cool, if not they can choose some emotional label indicating how the flirting irritated them like "Annoyed.")

    When that emotional injury is a concern then you suffer the -1 die to your roll.

    Similarly "Terrified" could be an injury. "Confused" and so on.

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  • Thrythlind
    replied
    Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post


    Except that explicitly is not what the book says?

    The Injury conditions section explicitly say that you need to apply appropriate conditions to the damage being done, ( the book says narratively logical but what it means is you can's bruise an eye with a sword slash.

    Bruised Category examples are Bruised ribs, Black eye and sprained ankle... all things that can be done with bashing damage. Injured are bashing and lethal, and Maimed is any type of damage.

    The Weapons Section even says that a weapon with the Lethal Tag cannot inflict a Bruised or Battered Injury Condition.
    It can't inflict a Bruised or Battered CONDITION.

    Conditions are the labels/effects applied to the character at different severity levels.

    The -1, -2 stuff is severity.

    Lethal damage at the -1 level might be labeled "Flesh Wound" or "Scratch"

    Bashing damage at the -1 level might be "Black Eye" or "Bruised"

    You could not use a sword to inflict a "Concussion" and you could use a baseball bat to inflict a "Severed Hand"

    The way you're reading the mechanics makes no sense and renders things so obviously unplayable that I feel it borders on being willfully ignorant. It feels a bit like you're trying to justify your dislike for the system by "proving" it's a bad system with rather ridiculously transparent misreadings.

    If you don't like the system, fine. Just leave and focus on the systems you do like and leave those who enjoy this system to have their fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyman201
    replied
    Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
    The Weapons Section even says that a weapon with the Lethal Tag cannot inflict a Bruised or Battered Injury Condition.
    Hi, let me lay it out for ya!

    Bruised is a bit confusing, I'll give you that, but refer to the Origin book (Page 120, talking about Injuries) where it says the following:

    Except for Taken Out, characters don’t often get Injured or Maimed, they get Broken Arm or Crushed Skull. Be descriptive when applying these Conditions — weapons can only apply Injury Conditions that would be narratively logical.
    Now, what can we infer from this?

    One, it says that Injured and Maimed are Just Names for the different injury levels. From there, assuming you're not the kind of person who doesn't need to be told every little thing, we can reasonably infer that by extension, the BRUISED level injury condition is Just A Name.

    More hint of this is, the thing you're citing notes that Lethal cannot inflict Bruised or Battered. Now if there were a Battered Injury Level, then maybe you could say that this bypasses it entirely.

    However, there is not a Battered level. There's just Bruised, Injured, and Maimed.

    So, to take away here... You can't leave "Heck Of A Shiner" or "Impressive Bruise" with a Knife, that has the Lethal tag. But you CAN inflict an injury such as "Dramatic Cut On The Cheek" or "Tis But A Scratch". Mechanically, these will still inflict -1 on relevant rolls, but they are -1 Conditions.

    FURTHERMORE, let's just take a look down on the page...

    Calculating Injury Conditions: Anyone can take the Bruised or Maimed Condition levels (or the equivalents thereof caused by weapons).
    (Emphasis mine)

    Hm, now, what we can infer from THAT is that weapons ARE in fact capable of inflicting injuries on all levels.

    So yeah, your read is 110% wrong. The first hint should probably have been "If there are multiple readings of this rule and one is Fucking Stupid, maybe don't assume the one that's fucking stupid is correct".

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  • JohanDracys
    replied
    Originally posted by Samudra View Post

    That is slightly poor word choice on the part of the book yes... Lethal damage can inflict -1 (Bruised) Injury conditions, it would just be a Condition like 'bleeding lip' or something instead of a literal bruise.

    A tie does favour the attacker... if you match the Defence with your attack roll you my choose to automatically deal 1 Injury, and then use extra successes to add more Stunts on top of that (this is all assuming no Soft Armor, which increases the difficulty of inflicting Injury)

    Except that explicitly is not what the book says?

    The Injury conditions section explicitly say that you need to apply appropriate conditions to the damage being done, ( the book says narratively logical but what it means is you can's bruise an eye with a sword slash.

    Bruised Category examples are Bruised ribs, Black eye and sprained ankle... all things that can be done with bashing damage. Injured are bashing and lethal, and Maimed is any type of damage.

    The Weapons Section even says that a weapon with the Lethal Tag cannot inflict a Bruised or Battered Injury Condition.

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  • Samudra
    replied
    Originally posted by Burbankfr View Post
    Hi, we just ran our first session this week end and my Storyteller had a hard time with this particular point you just talked about (we're not native english speakers and some paragraph aren't really clear.
    On p. 123 of Origin (re downloaded today to be sure), the Lethal tag says "A weapon with this tag cannot inflict the Bruised or Battered Injury Conditions." On p. 121, "Any time the character takes damage, he must take an Injury Condition. His player chooses to take a Bruised, Injured, or Maimed Condition, if available. If none are available, he is Taken Out".
    So if lethal can't make Bruised Injuries, it can only make Injured or Maimed Injuries. That's what my Storyteller understood and ruled for the session and I came here in hope of an official explanation.

    Also: I explained him that, as I understand it, when an attack is resolved, if the defender make 1 success and has no armor, and the attacker make 1 success also, the defender take 1 Injury Condition (so a tie favors the attacker). My Storyteller and my co-player both found this rule extremely violent but that's what I think it says... and since we didn't find any clear example... I came for this too...

    I read through these post but I'm still not sure if it answers my questions.
    That is slightly poor word choice on the part of the book yes... Lethal damage can inflict -1 (Bruised) Injury conditions, it would just be a Condition like 'bleeding lip' or something instead of a literal bruise.

    A tie does favour the attacker... if you match the Defence with your attack roll you my choose to automatically deal 1 Injury, and then use extra successes to add more Stunts on top of that (this is all assuming no Soft Armor, which increases the difficulty of inflicting Injury)

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  • Burbankfr
    replied
    Hi, we just ran our first session this week end and my Storyteller had a hard time with this particular point you just talked about (we're not native english speakers and some paragraph aren't really clear.
    On p. 123 of Origin (re downloaded today to be sure), the Lethal tag says "A weapon with this tag cannot inflict the Bruised or Battered Injury Conditions." On p. 121, "Any time the character takes damage, he must take an Injury Condition. His player chooses to take a Bruised, Injured, or Maimed Condition, if available. If none are available, he is Taken Out".
    So if lethal can't make Bruised Injuries, it can only make Injured or Maimed Injuries. That's what my Storyteller understood and ruled for the session and I came here in hope of an official explanation.

    Also: I explained him that, as I understand it, when an attack is resolved, if the defender make 1 success and has no armor, and the attacker make 1 success also, the defender take 1 Injury Condition (so a tie favors the attacker). My Storyteller and my co-player both found this rule extremely violent but that's what I think it says... and since we didn't find any clear example... I came for this too...

    I read through these post but I'm still not sure if it answers my questions.

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  • Samudra
    replied
    Bashing and Lethal damage can both apply to any of the injury boxes... What differs is the kinds of conditions they can inflict... Bashing damage can inflict things like Nasty Bruise, Concussed Head and Broken Arm, while Lethal can inflict things like Shallow Cut, Deep Wound and Cut to Ribbons depending on the severity of the Injury Condition box being filled in... The associated penalty of -1, -2 etc then applies to actions that could conceivably be affected by that injury condition... For example, Crushed Hand would penalize an attempt to shoot a gun, but not to run away.
    Last edited by Samudra; 05-07-2019, 12:09 PM.

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  • JohanDracys
    replied
    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
    Question 1: One attack = One Injury (unless you have a higher scale or critical)

    Question 2: No, the condition is defined by the target (yes, it’s kind of... ...weird) as long you have free spaces of the kind. The kind of damage just define the impact on armor and the description of the damage, not in the condition.

    Clarify then please. Because the damage section has damage type indicators which seem to indicate what type of damage applies, and this is utterly confusing.

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