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  • Mortal Magic Users?

    How are magical traditions such as Druids, Shamans, the Voodoun, etc handled (or should be)?

  • #2
    They can be expressed through various ways, either through Saints or Sorcerers. Though note since they more often hew to the actual and historical reps they had they might not be that familiar to what your thinking. But in any case for mortal magics, Sorcerers should be able to fulfill that function satisfactorily


    .

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    • #3
      I cannot speak for the others, but a druí (Ireland) or druides (Gaul and Britain) probably wouldn't have many magical talents in the same sense as a saman (Manchu, origin of the term Shaman) or other such religious or magical practitioners. The reputation they have as 'Nature Magicians' is sadly totally fictional, but the reality of them (as far as we can tell) is super duper cool.

      As Ice says, a lot of them can be handled with the Saint or Sorcerer Paths/Calling, some potentially the Prophet Path/Calling, but a lot could probably have even their own unique Path/Calling. For instance, a druides probably would have Knacks that let them notice magical sources, supervise others preforming religious ceremonies (the druides were overseers of the 'priests' who were a distinctly different thing), augment other's use of Marvels, force others to stop fighting, and probably having access to Judge and Sage Knacks. A druí on the other hand would be a tiny bit more 'magic-y' but mostly all in very weird open-ended prophecy telling (think of it like 'whomsoever travels the road to Temair from Emain Macha naked with an empty sling tomorrow should be High King of Ireland') and being able to say what the next day is good for ('today is good for begetting a king upon a queen') but lacking all of the cultural overseer roles the druides would have.

      The whole shapeshifting into animal things was made up in the later half of the 20th century. While druí do turn into animals in the Irish sagas, it's not because they're druí, but because they're supernatural. A ton of random nobodies with various professions turn into animals, it's unconnected to being a trained druí.


      Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
      The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire.
      The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples.
      The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation.
      The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think you're understating the role of magic in the Celtic life and Druids role in it. The tale of Talisin actually quotes that Caridwin used the magics of the druids to brew the potion in that story. They were also reputed as seers.

        I'm actually relatively knowledgeable about druids reputation and reality. And specifically in a game setting that opens with the line "All the myths are real," a pantheon that was closest with it's people perhaps then most others (particularly in Europe), myths sometimes blurred god and man, an understanding about how to incorporate magical abilities into certain religious and magical traditions is something I am interested in. I'm happy that Scion 2nd actually seems to address it in a way, 1st edition left it out completely.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
          I think you're understating the role of magic in the Celtic life and Druids role in it. The tale of Talisin actually quotes that Caridwin used the magics of the druids to brew the potion in that story. They were also reputed as seers.

          I'm actually relatively knowledgeable about druids reputation and reality. And specifically in a game setting that opens with the line "All the myths are real," a pantheon that was closest with it's people perhaps then most others (particularly in Europe), myths sometimes blurred god and man, an understanding about how to incorporate magical abilities into certain religious and magical traditions is something I am interested in. I'm happy that Scion 2nd actually seems to address it in a way, 1st edition left it out completely.
          I'm saying this because Watcher is too nice and humble to say it himself - he has just finished his MA in Celtic Studies with excpetional praise and has been enthusiastically accepted at the University of [REDACTED] (after being very narrowly turned down by [REDACTED BUT STILL IVY LEAGUE]) to do his PhD in Irish Saga Literature there. Consider yourself relatively knowledgable if you want, Johan, but please just know that Watcher actually knows better ^^'
          Last edited by Sacerdos; 05-09-2019, 04:50 AM. Reason: Watcher asked me to redact the personal info regarding the universities.

          Comment


          • #6
            Good to know. Of course nearly all Celtic literature has been destroyed or Christianized, and the oral traditions of the Celts that did survive in the libraries of Ireland are only now being translated (which is a very good thing). Of course since the goddess Cardwen does see the druids to learn a magic potion to give Morfan wisdom only instead to create Taliesin when he accidentally drinks the potion instead sparking a radical shapeshifting battle and eventually ending with Taliesin being born by Cardwen and raised to being a new king, I will stick with my original beliefs about Druids in myth at least.

            Unfortunately my focus of study was never Myth, but I tried not to slack here either. Unfortunately I've always found it hard to trust many sources on this area since as I said, reliable accounts and Primary sources for Celt Mythology were destroyed first by Rome, then by Christendom, and what was written down was recorded by Christian or Roman chroniclers.

            The advice on the knacks however was well taken.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am super happy to meet a fellow enthusiast then! I might be able to provide further areas for you to read and point you in the direction of some recent publications that discuss a lot of the things you might be interested in based on what you are talking about here, if you're interested! (For instance, the field has moved away from 'the Celts' as a term, Cardwen isn't regarded as a Goddess, none of the Irish or Welsh material count as Myths, and Christianity in Ireland is no longer positioned as the destroyer of these traditions but the source of them [keep in mind a lot of what they did to acomodate traditional beliefs was serious Heresy at the time and technically to this day])

              The use of ‘Celtic’ material is always a major challenge as there is a plethora of terrible resources available for study, and in the last 30 years Celtic Studies has had a fundamental shift in perspective that has not necessarily caught up with a lot of what is accessible to the general public. For instance, the field doesn’t consider the ‘Celts’ to be a collective any more, has harshly distanced itself from the suggestion that the figures in Welsh or Irish saga literature are pre-Christian deities, and other major movements away from what is more accessible to the general public which is sadly still around approximately the 1910s for Celtic Studies.

              If you are interested I can talk at length about this, but I don’t want to distract from your thread here unless you would like a discussion of it, and if you have religious beliefs regarding druids in this sense I wouldn’t want to cause any issues there.


              Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
              The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire.
              The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples.
              The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation.
              The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                I am super happy to meet a fellow enthusiast then! I might be able to provide further areas for you to read and point you in the direction of some recent publications that discuss a lot of the things you might be interested in based on what you are talking about here, if you're interested! (For instance, the field has moved away from 'the Celts' as a term, Cardwen isn't regarded as a Goddess, none of the Irish or Welsh material count as Myths, and Christianity in Ireland is no longer positioned as the destroyer of these traditions but the source of them [keep in mind a lot of what they did to acomodate traditional beliefs was serious Heresy at the time and technically to this day])

                The use of ‘Celtic’ material is always a major challenge as there is a plethora of terrible resources available for study, and in the last 30 years Celtic Studies has had a fundamental shift in perspective that has not necessarily caught up with a lot of what is accessible to the general public. For instance, the field doesn’t consider the ‘Celts’ to be a collective any more, has harshly distanced itself from the suggestion that the figures in Welsh or Irish saga literature are pre-Christian deities, and other major movements away from what is more accessible to the general public which is sadly still around approximately the 1910s for Celtic Studies.

                If you are interested I can talk at length about this, but I don’t want to distract from your thread here unless you would like a discussion of it, and if you have religious beliefs regarding druids in this sense I wouldn’t want to cause any issues there.
                The story I was exposed to recounts her as a goddess, and wife of a king ( whose name escapes me at the moment).

                I would be interested any resources, even when I disagree with something, I like to expand my knowledge base.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am happy to provide some resources in that case!

                  So, a root of the outdated information you have is a publication by K. H. Jackson in 1964 entitled The Oldest Irish Tradition: A Window on the Iron Age which was a collection and summary of ideas from the beginning of Celtic Studies as a field, formalizing the theory called ‘The Window to the Iron Age’ which postulated that the Irish and Welsh Sagas could be used to see what pre-Christian Ireland and Wales were like. This had been the leading theory up to Jackson’s publication, and would continue to be so until 1990 when Pagan Past and Christian Present in Early Irish Literature was published by Kim McCone who threw down the gauntlet and pointed out that none of this made any sense, collecting information from multiple sources and showing that it was flatly impossible for this ‘Window’ to provide even an incredibly foggy image of the past.

                  This resulted in battle lines being drawn in the field between these two groups supporting these differing theories, the Nativists (the people who followed the Window to the Iron Age theory, arguing that the Sagas were part of a native pre-Christian tradition) and the Anti-Nativists (the people who said this was nonsense and made no sense). It was a tense decade and a bit in the field, but a series of publications spelled the death of the Window to the Iron Age theory, dismantling it at its core, and using literary, archeological, and historical evidence to prove it wrong on every front.

                  For some quick and fun examples that help highlight this: One scholar did a review of swords in the Irish sagas, looking at how they are described and how they are used in the Irish sagas. They are 100% historically wrong. You see, archaeologically we know that in the Irish iron age, short stabbing blades were used, but in the Sagas we see long cleaving blades. Where does this come from? The Nose of course! The influx of Norse sword designs and smithing techniques caught on in Ireland in the early medieval period. Thereby, the swords of the sagas are not representative of historical fact, as the cleaving swords the Sagas claim are from the iron age are actually all medieval.

                  A second example of this is the Chariot Situation. See, the Irish Sagas love talking about chariots, but.... We can’t find any. And Ireland at the time would have been absolutely useless for chariots, the geography would be totally wrong and unhelpful for chariots. Furthermore, as shown by Raimund Karl in 2003 in ‘Iron Age Chariots and Medieval Texts: a Step Too Far in ‘Breaking Down Boundaries’?,’ the words employed to describe chariots result in a very.... Odd vehicle, and would require transport over roads most likely, of which there were oppressively few in Ireland. But, where do these chariots come from? Probably from the authors of these sagas being aware of Greek Epics (the Irish even have written their own Iliad fanfic and their own retelling of The Odyssey for instance in this period!) and knew that these Greek heroes used chariots, therefore theirs ought to as well. (We also see that Cú Chulainn is clearly heavily inspired by Achilles, and appears that he might have been a purely medieval invention)

                  Now, this all comes to a conclusion with the publication of Ireland’s Immortals by Mark Williams who carries the executioner’s blade for the Window of the Iron Age theory and shows that the Túatha Dé Danann are fake-Gods. Not in a ‘false-Gods’ sense, but in a ‘These are all made up in the medieval period,’ way. He points out which figures are probably based on originally pre-Christian deities (he argues Boanann, and Midir as major examples due to their function in the earliest sagas and toponyms, Nuadu and Brigid both probably being imported tribal patrons from Britain) but goes on to prove that the vast majority of their characterization and their roles in the sagas are totally medieval and unbased in pre-Christian belief. He is even able to prove that some figures are 100% made up in the medieval period. (Ler for instance can be traced to the 14th century when monks forgot that ‘mac Lir’ for Manannán wasn’t a patronym but a profession-based epithet system popular in the earlier sagas, as his actual father is someone entirely else)

                  Furthermore, Williams points out that there wouldn’t have been a unified mythic tradition in Ireland. Everything that we can see historically, archaeologically, and literarily suggests that there wouldn’t be an ‘Irish Pantheon’ but hundreds of different collections of deities primarily unique to each small tuath, ‘tribe,’ within Ireland. We can see this is the case in all other Iron Age Celtic Language speaking areas (Gaul, northern Spain, Galatia, Britain, etc), and some specific phrases in the Irish sagas ‘I swear by the gods my people swear by,’ shows that each tribal group likely had their own unique figures. Thereby, the sagas we have of the Túatha Dé Danannn, such as the battles of Mag Tuired and the sort are all inventions of the medieval period, unconnected to pre-Christian belief save in some potential vague similar names here and there.

                  But, why would these monks do this? As you said, shouldn’t they be stomping out local beliefs? This was the belief until recently, post Window-Theory, when the field has settled on the idea that this is simply not the case. Ireland was heavily isolated religiously, and sort of.... ‘Wandered off’ a lot. These monks were all Irish, they grew up in a culture that was Irish, and many were both Fíli (the professionally trained Bards, actual Bards are untrained and of far lesser status) as well as monks in the early period. These people incorporated traditional beliefs into their Christianity, reorganized Christianity and traditional belief, and then four centuries later (Christianity arrived in Ireland in the 4th century, the major saga period begins in the 8th) these monks wanted to write their own great epics. So they took what remained, they added, and out of the shadows of pre-Christian belief, local oral traditions from the Christian medieval period, and their own imaginations created the Túatha Dé Danann, originally the Túatha Dé, the God-Peoples. Their imaginations flourished and grew, they wrote beautiful stories, and created the tales, and characters we know today. But they are an invention of the medieval period, and not based on pre-Christian belief. (For instance, in our earliest stories the Túatha Dé and the Fomorians appear to be the same people, the oceanic associations of the Fomorians as overseas raiders and being a distinctly separate group doesn’t develop until after the Norse raids)


                  Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                  The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire.
                  The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples.
                  The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation.
                  The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Now, with this background established, I can get into the specifics!

                    So! I would never doubt the role of magic in any society’s life, magic is very important and holds major functions in all world cultures systems. Even modernly there are many things that 100% fall into the anthropological definition of Magic that are popularly believed in, even by people who position themselves as pure rationalists refuting belief in the supernatural, just not regarded as ‘magic’ by the general public. I know magic was very important in medieval Ireland, a friend of mine is doing their MA on medical charms in medieval Ireland, I would just disagree that the druí had a major role in it compared to others.

                    But, before that we need to address ‘Celt’. So, ‘Celt’ is a modern term originally intended to reference the Iron Age peoples of Europe who weren’t part of the ‘Classical World’ by a museum archivist in the 18th century. This then became the ‘Not-Germanic and Not Classical World’ over time, and eventually evolves into the ‘Celts’ as we know them today. However, none of these people we call ‘Celts’ would have identified culturally with the others. Medieval Ireland and pre-Greek Galatia wouldn’t think they were the same people. While yes the term Celtoi was taken from a tribal name, it was a name for a specific tribe somewhere north of Greece that we have limited reference to. This would be like calling every European an Athenian.

                    There is increasing pushback in the field to using the term ‘Celtic’ to describe things as it results in confusion such as this. The public develops this idea of the ‘Celts,’ mostly inspired by exceptionally bad Victorian ideas of what the Celts must be (forged by the same imperial cultures that give us horrible depictions of African and First Nations peoples) and impose all of their cultural baggage on them. So, if you look closely, you will see the ‘Celts’ get associated with the same things that the Colonial British used to dismiss cultures of peoples they colonized. The ‘Noble Savage,’ the idea of ‘Nature Worship’ and ‘Beautiful Harmony with Nature’ is imposed on them, all out of the heads of the British which has zero foundation in reality. In fact, the Irish appear to be super against nature in all of the sagas, with the Túatha Dé Danann deforesting most of Ireland after they invade and conquer the native peoples of Ireland. (You can’t raise cattle in forest)

                    This image of the ‘Celt’ is totally incorrect, and spans literally thousands of years, suggesting cultural consistency from Asia to Ireland, from the 12th century BCE to the modern day. This is totally rejected, obviously, and thus the use of things like ‘Celtic Warriors,’ ‘Celtic Mythology,’ and ‘Celtic Music’ is being pushed against.

                    What ‘Celtic’ is used for is linguistics. The Celtic Language Family connects all of these peoples, and that is what ‘Celtic’ means scholarly. But, just like the Germanic Languages, a migration period Germanic king is not the same as Queen Elizabeth II, despite both being Germanic monarchs.

                    And this all leads back to Druids.

                    So, while people often imagine the ‘Druids’ as ‘Celtic,’ such images are gross simplifications. We see zero evidence for ‘Druids’ outside of Ireland, Britain, and Gaul. Thereby, the ‘Celts’ of Central Europe, the ‘Celts’ of Galatia, the ‘Celts’ of Celtiberia, the ‘Celts’ of the Balkans, the Manx, and the Picts (who may or may not be ‘Celtic’ it’s a current argument) all have zero evidence of the presence of Druids. Yes there is Druinemeton in Galatia, but that just means ‘Sacred Shrine of Oak,’ which doesn't necessitate the presence of 'Druids'.

                    Furthermore, the majority of our image of ‘Druids’ is, again, made up by the Victorians and the Romantic period who threw their obsessive love for nature onto the Druids. They created the idea of the Druids as naturalists, men active in the wilderness (you will see that these modern reinventors of the druids also cut women from the narrative despite the Irish sagas referencing women druí) who are keepers of secret knowledge. This is absolute piss and totally made up by them. You can fit everything we know about the Druids across every ‘Celtic’ speaking region on a single sheet of printer paper in font size 12. We know borderline nothing about them, but do know that all of that stuff with nature is a total extrapolation from vague references by Classical Authors who had their own agendas to push.

                    The use of the term ‘Druid’ also suggests some sort of continuity of systems which we can’t actually prove. From everything we see, the druí of Ireland as described in the Sagas and the druides of Gaul and Britain are similar in vague ways (both seem to have some sort of good-day-bad-day system evidenced by the Irish sagas and the Coligny Calendar), but are overwhelmingly different otherwise. Thereby, we should reject the term ‘druid’ and instead use the specific terms for the specific groups as they seem to be totally different chapters of the same book. Thereby, there were no Druids in Ireland or Gaul, in Ireland there were druíd (pl.) and in Gaul there were druides.

                    In Gaul, we see zero evidence of the druides doing anything magical, you can go read the original sources yourself, at most they seem to be cultural overseers, managers of culture, and keepers of social order. In the Irish sagas, the druí totally do magic! But, so does literally everyone else as being sufficiently good at a profession, from cupbearer to warrior, has that person marshalling magical skills. So, we can’t guarantee this has to do with magic related to the druí specifically.

                    However! We have one bit of evidence that suggests the druí might have been believed to have magic. In The Lorica of Saint Patrick we see an invocation of prayer against an absolute mountain of different things (the full length one goes on for ages, it’s a pain) but one line references protecting the speaker from the magic of druíd, women, and smiths. So! Potentially the druíd were using magic, but if this is accepted as the sole source of evidence, the complete text needs to be used, and thereby smiths and women are also magicians. Which is fine, but, should be taken in the complete context.

                    As everything we see in Ireland, the only place where druíd are associated with magic as direct actors (the Middle Welsh words derydd and drwy both seem to come from the same root as the others, but we never see anyone called one of these terms do anything, or even see one ‘on screen’) isn’t exactly a super strong claim. If you want magicians in Ireland, look at the Fíli and Satirists, poetry can manipulate the world, kill kings, cause rivers to flood, and force heroes to buckle before it. The magic of poetry survives into the modern era in rural Nova Scotia to a degree, though just in folklore. Look to them for magicians, not the druíd who don’t seem to be doing anything special.

                    If you want to read good books about the ‘druids,’ check out Blood and Mistletoe by Ronald Hutton and Druids: A Very Short Introduction by Barry Cunliffe which are both more or less the only respectable modern books on ‘Druids’ that aren’t just selling you lies, knowingly or unknowingly.
                    Last edited by Watcher; 05-10-2019, 09:15 PM.


                    Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                    The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire.
                    The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples.
                    The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation.
                    The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And lastly, on to Cardwen. To deal with this we need to first understand Wales, and that’s so complicated I had to go to one of my friends who knows this better than I, one of Cambridge’s PhD students studying this material.

                      So, the Taliesin & Cerridwen story is sadly not a pre-Christian Welsh story. It is not even early in the Welsh literary tradition. For context, remember that Christianity arrive with the Romans in the 1-2nd century in Wales, and the earliest hunk of the Welsh saga material is in the 12th century. Over a thousand years of Christian presence before these were recorded.

                      You can’t look at the Taliesin & Cerridwen as early or evidence of any early traditions because it is part of a developing legend and is actually harshly in conflict with the actual older stories unless this Taliesin is 100% different from the rest of references to Taliesin in Wales. Which, if the case, still means it is a super late story. But, anyways.

                      The first mention of Taliesin is in the Historia Brittonum which you can read translations of online where he is referenced with Aneirin. He is one of the bards who flourished at the time of Urien Rheged. We then have some praise poetry attributed to Taliesin and addressed to Urien in The Book of Taliesin. But, this is a 14th century manuscript, and while the poetry is older, we can’t date it. I couldn’t tell you why since Paleography isn’t my wheelhouse, but something is causing issues. However, the most important scholar who has written the most on this is Marged Haycock who positions this as 12th century due to similarities with court poetry, which means it is 100% not pre-Christian by literally several centuries. At best, it might be 10th century, but that’s still, again, well into Christianity for Wales.

                      Now, ,these poems could be written by this historical Taliesin, someone could have also just written it after the fact because they heard about Taliesin from the H.B. which wouldn’t be out of the ordinary at all.

                      This Book of Taliesin also contains reference to this more magical Taliesin who has prophetic knowledge, shapeshifting, all that stuff. He is positioned as being part of the same ‘clique’ of the Mabinogi and early Arthurian material. However, these stories are so thoroughly established within a Christian world they cannot be read as evidence of pre-Christian figures. The one ‘that’s probably a God’ we see in the Mabinogi is a super duper side character named Mabon who we never really get any details on, but his name is a theonym (Divine Son), and a similar deity appears in Roman Britain. But Mabon is The Most Unimportant character, and the rest of the characters from the Mabinogi can’t really be read as deities. Sure Rhiannon looks a bit horse-Goddessy if you squint, but there’s a reason there’s a recent publication that makes a ‘beating a dead horse goddess’ pun in the title, it’s really stretching and mostly a theory supported primarily by wishful thinking.

                      In our earliest stories of Taliesin, he sits solidly within a Christian world. In fact, Taliesin is so Christian it serves as the core center of his character in early tests. His secret magical knowledge is all Christian knowledge. He exists within an explicitly Christian context in the early Preideu Annwn where he lambastes monks for not knowing the time of day Jesus was born when he does, disgusted with their claims of religious authority when they are failing this, what Taliesin believes, basic level of knowledge of Christianity.

                      Now, the source you probably read that described Cardwen as a Goddess and having been taught the potion by ‘Druids’ as we can see is a 14th century story that is likely originally 12th, and at absolute oldest only 10th century. So, right off the bat, this should draw serious suspicion. Now, trust me, if Cardwen was described as a Goddess, scholars would be all over that like flies on shit, actual evidence of pre-Christian Irish or Welsh religion would make someone’s career, but the flaw is in the translation. The word is ogrfen which is translated as ‘The Goddess of’ but this is absolutely incorrect. The Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru, the dictionary of the Welsh language used by scholars for these projects offers ‘muse, inspiration; poetry’ lacking any Etymology. Now, while I am not well versed in linguistics, I do know the words for ‘God’ in Old Irish and Middle Welsh, and like other PIE languages they love that D-Vowel system of Deí and Duw. My friend has no idea why anyone would translate ogrfen as ‘Goddess,’ but it’s sadly factually incorrect. It is probably the result of a chain-translation where ‘muse’ became ‘Muse’ which made someone assume a translation mean ‘like the Greek Muses’ and becomes ‘Goddess’ which is a chain of telephone that simply holds no water.

                      Now, the use of the ‘druids’ training her in this skill is also sadly likely a mistranslation. By the time this story was written, derwydd and drwy have simply become words referencing prophets or wise men. So, while Cardwen being trained by them sounds like ‘Oh, trained by the druids!’ within the historical and linguistic context just means ‘was trained by wise men.’ And making magic potions is very basic medieval european magic stuff, it is entirely historically valid that ‘wise men’ could train someone to do this, be they monks, bishops, or magicians.

                      So, yes. I hope that was at least interesting to read Johan! That's the modern scholarly scoop on this situation, and some suggested books and authors to check out.


                      Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                      The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire.
                      The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples.
                      The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation.
                      The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As a bard, I'm always interested in learning. By the way, I learned that story from lessons in O.B.O.D. I was more interested in a reading list, since as usual with any information I am given (specially on the internet), I take it skeptically no matter how legitimate or with how much authority they speak with. I always like the ability to evaluate the source. After all, much of what the scholarly community used to describe the Celtic peoples culture was written by Caesar until (as you mentioned) actual archaeological evidence was being applied to it to disprove their assumptions. Still a lot of what you said is reflected in what I already knew.

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