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What happens when world views crash?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    In general assume Mundane, not Fatebound, mortals are going to find the earthly reality we know regardless of their personal beliefs. Scions and the Fatebound favor whatever cosmology they’re connected to, while with cross pantheon groups Fate/plot rules.
    So basically the answer is: GM fiat. Very well, that makes it pretty easy and complicated at the same time.

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    • #17
      They better get to Antarctica while there's still an Antarctica to get to.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        They better get to Antarctica while there's still an Antarctica to get to.
        You mean global warming? Since Antarctica is actually a landmass covered by ice it will still be there even at higher temperatures.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
          You mean global warming?
          Well, that, and the Titans shaking the bars of their prison. That probably isn't too good for things.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Darksider View Post
            Don't do that please.Apologizing to Wyrdhamster probably wouldn't be a bad idea either.
            My bad.

            wyrdhamster I apologize, that was out of line.

            Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
            In our mundane reality I agree with you. But in the World of Scion I have a hard time believing science would be more than just another world view that is always secondary to whatever myths are currently active in the area.
            The Science skill denotes that Science is a methodology of making hypotheses and testing your results, and thus explicitly can be applied to Supernatural Stuff. Science isn't a belief, it's a mindset and a method.

            Like-

            Originally posted by Origins, pg 60
            The Science Skill represents a character’s exposure to the philosophical underpinnings of the scientific method. Though they likely have some knowledge of modern scientific theories, this doesn’t necessarily mean that they have a PhD. They have just learned to look at the world in an orderly and quantifiable way. For this reason, it is entirely compatible with Occult.
            Science is still a thing that exists, as it is in our reality.

            Really, 'Science is a religion' is mostly the talk of people who want to deny progress, say there's no such thing as Evolution, don't get their kids vaccinated, and cast doubt on climate change reports.
            Last edited by Kyman201; 05-19-2019, 03:25 PM.


            Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
              The Science skill denotes that Science is a methodology of making hypotheses and testing your results, and thus explicitly can be applied to Supernatural Stuff. Science isn't a belief, it's a mindset and a method.

              Like-



              Science is still a thing that exists, as it is in our reality.

              Really, 'Science is a religion' is mostly the talk of people who want to deny progress, say there's no such thing as Evolution, don't get their kids vaccinated, and cast doubt on climate change reports.
              You don't need to convince me of such things, I'm with you on the importance of science. Interesting to know that science is still valid even in such a wacky setting as Scion because it is still a viable method that can be used to study the wackiness.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

                You don't need to convince me of such things, I'm with you on the importance of science. Interesting to know that science is still valid even in such a wacky setting as Scion because it is still a viable method that can be used to study the wackiness.
                What he means is not about the importance, but the way science works. A scientist in the World would detect a god using science and it is not going to disprove science, science would englobe the gods in the paradigm. Science is not about proving it’s the way I believe, it’s about understanding what’s it is.

                I honestly don’t think the guys arriving in Antartica would find anything other than what we expect to find there, but some travellers can arrive (wanting or not) in Incognitae versions of Antartica.

                It’s the same thing about looking the sun with a telescope, you will see the star we go around every year, but if a sun god use it’s powers around you, you can possibly see the proper image wanted (a mirror, a carriage, a boat, whatever). The Mythic versions are visible when the gods are acting, or when you are on Terra Incognitae, otherwise it’s not about believe or wanting, but by the impact of the myth...

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                • #23
                  Honestly the main point of my first post about the different reactions to being in Antarctica... Well there's a reason I used flowerly language and added 'Then they understand'.

                  People see things in our world. And they sometimes see what they want to see. Sometimes you just have to tilt your head to the side, squint, and oh, yes, I guess all of the cosmos IS an ocean if you think of it that way, and we ARE basically a turtle swimming through it, huh?

                  And yeah, my thing about Science is that one, most Scientific Laws that we have in this world function in the World of Scion, as does most technology which is built around an understanding of certain properties, some of which may not go completely in line with say, the Greek Laws of Nature. And even with magic existing, so does our scientific understanding.

                  A Sciency Type in the World would be going "So why DOES salt prevent ghosts from passing over it? Hmmmmmm-"


                  Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                  • #24
                    There’s a comment in the books I seem to recall about the Gods looking askance at efforts to subject the Mythic to Marvels to scientific analysis. Which is not to say a player character can’t do it! Them not liking it creates plot hooks.

                    I assume they don’t like it because it risks getting Fatebound to a specific hypothesis.


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                    • #25
                      Just chiming in. Scientific Analysis is /not/ religion buuuuuut scientific culture is a religion because you can never be completely sure that your theory or data is correct because later data can invalidate it, and we'll probably never have a "complete" understanding of the universe. (At least not while were still "humans")
                      I personally think logic and reason are fundamental to life, and that science, and by extension, progress is perhaps one of the most important things we have, but just like how Athiesm is a religion, so is modern scientific culture.
                      That's not to say science is wrong. It's the most accurate world model we got and until a time were we might get a different model, what we say is, scientifically, is the most accurate understanding we got. So I'll believe in it with my own personal theories.
                      But using logic and reason, i.e. scientific analysis, is just being smart, not religious. How you chose to interpret information gained from scientific analysis is, however, as its a belief that you trust even though we don't have all the information yet.

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                      • #26
                        I understand your point of view, but belief system and religion are two different things: science and atheism are belief systems as well as Gnosticism. Religion is about dogmas and traditions, while believing is just about believing, you can’t be religious if you don’t practice any religion, but you can be a believer in gods anyway.

                        Than we come to the science and believing in science thing. Science is not about believing, it’s about checking, it’s about method, it’s about systematic tests. Most people don’t participate on the real science of science, they just learn it, and so it work as a belief system, once you go there and start measuring gravity or cataloging species and seeing fluctuations in the electromagnetic field, it’s not about believing, it’s about understanding the workings. If it’s not explainable it don’t mean it’s a lie, it just mean it need to be understood.

                        In a world with marvels and magic, science would not disbelief it, science would develop a method of measuring it and explaining how magic work. That’s exact what science is. Any scientist that happen to see magic in action in the real world will try to create an hypothesis of its workings, usually going with their scientific knowledge, if he can repeat it methodically, study it, create and confirm better theories about it, his knowledge about science will englobe what we call now magic, and it became science.

                        A scientist CAN believe in gods, but he will not create a scientific theory on it because you need to use the scientific method to test it, what in real world is impossible. If heroes work with scientists, they can, possibly, add gods to the scientific knowledge, and it would became a new area of science maybe, as it happened to Noetic Science in Trinity Continuum, that we’re studied by parapsychology until Psions become capable of use it methodically in labs to be measured and studied.

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                        • #27
                          If three ordinary people visit the South Pole, they will most likely find the physical South Pole described by science (and satellites, and previous visitors...).

                          However, if Characters A and B are also Scions or other beings touched by Fate, they will not only find the physical South Pole described by science, but also the horrible monster dimension and the vastness of space.

                          And they will also discover that the horrible monster dimension and the vastness of space have, through an extremely implausible and convoluted but somehow still perfectly logical chain of events, become connected to each other somehow, and now they, the new people showing up on the scene - have to deal with this somehow. Either as allies trying to solve or exploit the crisis, or as antagonists who will strive to gain the upper hand against each other.

                          Fate is funny that way.


                          However, as a clarification the actual beliefs of these characters does not matter - just to what Pantheons they are bound (and thus, their myths about Antarctica). Fate does not care whether you believe in it or not.

                          As for Character C, if they aren't bound to Fate in one way or another, then their views will not matter - they are not bound to any myths, but they will likely be bound up in the myths evolving around Characters A and/or B in short order.

                          If they are bound to Fate, but the myths of their Pantheon have nothing to say about Antarctica[1], then this will not influence what the three characters will find in Antarctica. However, the three of them might discover that someone from Character C's Pantheon is ultimately responsible for the current disaster ("Damnit, Loki!!!").


                          To sum it up: Fate is a cheating bastard. The players should be free to make decisions for their characters - what they are going to do and where they want to go. However, the Storyguide can and should strive to present the story as if the characters were always meant to visit a certain place - even if they (and their players) only decided on this the previous game session. So the PCs suddenly decide to go to Antarctica for whatever implausible reason? Inevitably, they will find something that ties in to their personal backstories and ongoing plots.

                          Hopefully, the players will be wise enough to distinguish between player agency and player character agency - the player characters are bound by fate, but the players are nevertheless free to choose.



                          [1]Others have adressed the "science religion" thing - it's rightfully inappropriate. But you could use something like Theosophy or other 19th/20th century pseudo-scientific weirdness as the basis for your Pantheon if you really must.


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                          • #28
                            Fate is really funny that way, completely crazy indeed.

                            You can also, if you can't handle all the multiple versions of the same place at once, work as different Terra Incognitae that occupy the same space.

                            For example, if the band goes to the south pole the guide will take them to their version of the south pole, because the guide knows the way. If the guides is not fatebound or have no belief system the band end up on the "easiest South Pole Terra Incognitae", the "real south pole", the one that anyone can get if follows the compass (pretend the compass point to the south pole and not to the local magnetic field, that get really crazy when you are getting close to the poles, also the difference between magnetic and geographic, you got this).
                            If the guide have a different version of south pole on the belief system, the band will end up on the terra incognitae expected by the guide, be that the entrance do the hollow earth, underworld, or the ice wall of flat earth.

                            They are in the exact same place, and you can probably take the same way to get there, but you end up in a different place because fate works that way.

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