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  • #16
    Originally posted by omenseer View Post
    Something I learned recently. Apparently Nidhogr survives Ragnarok. I thought this was interesting.
    Hel also has no canoncial death in Ragnarok unlike her father and brothers. It mentions that Loki leads many of the dead from her realm upon a ship of fingernails in revenge against the Aesir, and that Baldr and Hodr exit her realm to join with the other surviving Gods, but Hel herself is not mentioned.

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    • #17
      If memory serves, none of the Goddesses are explicitly described as dying at Ragnarok. It doesn't say what happens to them in any source I know of.
      Last edited by Purple Snit; 06-05-2019, 10:01 AM.

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      • #18
        To literally copy-paste an old JSR blog entry on this question:

        Originally posted by Anne on Sunday December 1st 2013 at 8:25 AM
        Oh, sure, tons of them. Eschatology, the study of the events of the end of the world, is not a purely European concept at all; many other cultures have their own ideas of what will happen at the death of the universe, some of them specifically marked and dated, others only implied.

        The Norse stories of Ragnarok are very specific about times, places and people involved and so on, largely because they're predicated on prophecies. Details have been furnished by seers and soothsayers who have the ability to see into the future of Fate's weave; other cultures may not have as strong an emphasis on prophetic visions, and instead base their end-of-the-world scenarios on information gleaned from scripture or estimations based on their cosmological concepts of time and space.

        One of the most famous, thanks to its religion still being a thriving and living one, is the end of the Kali Yuga in Hinduism. According to Hindu theology, every "day" - equivalent to literally millions of years, varying from four to several hundred depending on the scripture and sect - for Brahma, who experiences time much more slowly than mere humans, is equal to four ages in the world, roughly 24,000 years total. These four ages are the Satya Yuga (Age of Truth), in which religion, wisdom and prosperity are the rule of the universe; the Treta Yuga (Age of Three, referring to the number of pillars of Dharma remaining to support things at this time), in which evil begins to afflict the world but great heroes also arise to combat it; the Dvapara Yuga (Age of Two, referring to the now only at half-strength number of pillars), in which humanity is flawed but also kingly and learns to expiate their sins through study of the holy Vedas; and the Kali Yuga (Age of Kali, here referring to the asura Kali, not the goddess of the same name), during which humanity has degenerated into wanton sin and depravity and forgotten all but the most basic teachings of Hinduism.

        We're currently in the Kali Yuga, which started at the moment that Vishnu left his last earthly incarnation, according to most interpretations of Hindu mythology (yes, just as in Greek mythology, we are the worst ever crop of humanity. Go us). Just as in the Norse myths of Ragnarok, the end of the Kali Yuga - and therefore the end of the world, when Brahma blinks and restarts the world once more at the beginning of the Satya Yuga - there are several prophesied events, culminating in a final showdown between the asura Kali, who is the one who has destroyed all righteousness on earth during the centuries of the Kali Yuga, and Kalki, the final avatar of Vishnu, who is destined to defeat him and in so doing end the world and make it ready for the beginning of the Satya Yuga again.

        There's a ton of scripture out there on the Kali Yuga, not to mention reams of literature written by Hindu theologists and philosophers over the past thousand years or two, so if you want to really dig into it in detail, libraries and the internet are ready to help.

        Of course, seldom in Scion do we discuss the problems of the Deva without also mentioning the Yazata, so a quick side trip into Zoroastrianism gets us another awesome end of the world scenario. The ancient Persian word for the event is Frashokereti, meaning "things become excellent", and as in Hindu tradition the world is broken up into ages, although in this case there are three instead of four (the first two were the Age of Creation and the Age of Pollution or Combination), and we're currently heading into the Age of Separation, when good and evil fight for supremacy.

        According to Zoroastrian prophecy in the Avesta, the end of the world will be ushered in by the Saoshyant, a special hero and the son of the great Ahura Mazda himself (or in other traditions, Zarathustra), born from a virgin who bathes in a lake in which a trace of the supreme god's semen was left in order to impregnate her. The Saoshyant (who in Scion terms is definitely a kind of super specialized Scion, although in what terms totally depends on your take on Ahura Mazda) will wield the weapons of Vahram, resurrect the righteous dead to live again and lead the Yazata against the evil forces of the daeva, eventually defeating them. The gods will then melt the world into rivers of molten lava and metal, which will wash over all living things; the worthy and good will be able to wade through them to become one with heaven in bliss, but the evil will be utterly destroyed, along with Angra Mainyu and all his daeva minions.

        Slightly north of Persia we run into the Slavs, who have their own eschatological forecast; according to Slavic tradition, Svarog lives for one million years, each day of which is the entire lifespan of the World (more than a little bit similar to Brahma, eh?). Each "day", he slumbers in the egg of the sun until he awakens in the evening, at which point he sweeps everything in the universe - all creation, living things, even the other gods - into one big pile and reconstitutes them into the pure stuff of creation, which he then fashions into the next world. This is called Sweeping Day and happens continually and regularly, like clockwork, and each time he recreates the Bogovi to take over their traditional foes, reborn with no memory of the last world. There's no specific time frame given for this, so we don't know how many years each world lasts; technically, Sweeping Day could be at any time, which is sobering. Someone with Prophecy should get on figuring that out.

        We've also got the Mesopotamian religions; while they don't have any particular predictions for what will happen when the world ends, they do have an exact date. According to Babylonian texts, the world has a lifetime of "twelve times twelve sars", where one sar is equal to 36,000 years, so therefore the world is scheduled to last exactly 5,184,000 years. Furthermore, at the time of their civilization, they believed that there were only twelve sars - 432,000 years - left to go and that the vast majority of the world's lifespan was already over. So if we assume that's counting from the beginning of the major time of power for the Babylonian empire, around 1800 B.C.E., we're looking at a precise date for the end of the world in the year 430,200 C.E. In other words, too far away to care (which is probably what all that theoretical math was supposed to mean in Babylonian texts in the first place).

        The two other major end-times scenarios that come to mind - those of the Aztec and Egyptian religions - are conditional, meaning that they aren't scheduled as an inevitability but will happen only if specific events occur first. For the Aztecs, we're currently living in the fifth world; the previous four worlds were each destroyed by large-scale disasters brought on by squabbles between the gods, in each case leading with the defection or destruction of the current sun deity. While there is no forecasted end of the world, it's understood that if the current sun - now embodied by Tonatiuh and protected by Huitzilopochtli - is destroyed or goes rogue, the fifth world will be destroyed as well. Depending on the tradition, some Mexican sources imply that a sixth world would then be created with a new god serving as the sun, while others - possibly more modern or influenced by Christianity - claim that the fifth world is the last one and that its destruction would spell the final and incontrovertible end.

        Things are far more uncomfortable for the Egyptians; their cosmology is based on the idea that Ra, as the original creator of the universe, may at any time decide to become tired of it. If that occurs, he will decide to simply go to sleep, and as a result the world will be destroyed until such time as he decides to wake up and give remaking a new one a shot. While this hasn't happened yet, it's been a very near thing at least once; in one Egyptian story, Ra decides he's disenchanted with the whole affair and is about to pull the plug, and Hathor, goddess of beauty, joy and sexuality, narrowly averts disaster by lifting up her skirt and flashing him a full view of her incredibly attractive genitals. Ra is so amused he laughs uproariously, and then decides that he couldn't possibly destroy anything that awesome, so the world lives on another day. He could, however, decide to destroy the world at any moment; the only other end-of-the-world note is that Osiris is the only god expressly said to survive that apocalypse and be able to converse with Ra afterward, although he's not always very thrilled about the prospect.

        With all this madness going on, there are plenty of doomsday possibilities to play with for Scion games. This is your hour to shine, oracles and prophets!


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Thrythlind View Post
          The Aztec world endings aren't cyclical and the sacrifices aren't to the gods. The sacrifices are made to keep the current world running and if things go wrong the world ends. I think, if the current world ends then there won't be a seventh world, but that's mainly because the Gods are running out of things to sacrifice on their end to try again. Because, yeah, the Aztec gods aren't holding the world hostage and saying "Sacrifice to us or else we stop everything" the Aztec gods are basically saying "we can't keep this going on our own, we need you to do your part as well. We'll survive but we can't protect you if things end."
          Basically, in Aztec metaphysics everything that exists is made out of a divine force called "teotl" that constantly recreates itself in new form. These forms - plants, rocks, people, gods, the world itself - are always temporary and will sooner or later break down and their teotl recreated into something new. The goal of all these sacrifices is to extend the current world for a little while longer - but sooner or later this world too must end, because nothing is eternal.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Thrythlind View Post
            The Aztec world endings aren't cyclical and the sacrifices aren't to the gods. The sacrifices are made to keep the current world running and if things go wrong the world ends. I think, if the current world ends then there won't be a seventh world, but that's mainly because the Gods are running out of things to sacrifice on their end to try again. Because, yeah, the Aztec gods aren't holding the world hostage and saying "Sacrifice to us or else we stop everything" the Aztec gods are basically saying "we can't keep this going on our own, we need you to do your part as well. We'll survive but we can't protect you if things end."

            The Tuatha apparently don't really have an ending....they don't really have a beginning either.

            I don't think the Kami or the Shen have prophesied endings either.

            As to how this can be, I like one person's explanation of nested realities. Like, if the Aztec world ends, it will wreak great havoc on The World, but The World will still go on, just without the Aztec portion of it. It would become somehow, imperceptibly smaller.

            Also, the Abrahamic ending is also supposed to be an intermediary step to returning to a purified state in the Kingdom of God, at least in some sects. The idea of it as a true end: nothing beyond this point; is only in some sects, not all.
            Irish Myth is interesting because they were recorded by christian scribes, so yeah a lot of bits are likely lost to time. The Gods are just a race of extremely powerful, immortal humans, Who fled north into the icey waste after their origanal tribe, the numerians i think, was destroyed (The Other survivors fled east to Wales, and south to Greece, becoming the Fir Bolg), there they found the Goddess Danu, who helped foster them into their current state, then they warred with the returned fir bolg and formorians until the current race of man forced them from the island, so it's very possible another invasion could occur and force the current irish out.

            Also the christians scribes said that the first settlers of ireland were lead by a woman who was noahs daughter but denied a place on the ark so she made her own boats and i find it funny.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ravian View Post
              Meanwhile the Greeks outline the Gold, Silver, Bronze, and the current Iron Age of humanity (Along with the possible delineation between the Heroic age and the modern age). Similarly there's a bit of an implied succession of usurping kings of the Gods, first with Oranos being castrated by Cronus, than Cronus being chopped into pieces by Zeus, and Zeus being prophesied to be overthrown by one of his sons (which is part of why he devoured Metis, which in turn led to Athena being born from his head) So yeah, given the nature of fate that seems kind of inevitable.
              Fun Fact: The Greeks actually believed in some form of reincarnation for those who earned passage to the Elysian Fields. Just because Zeus killed Metis the first time around, doesn't mean she's gone forever. So Zeus might still have to watch out for that prophecy in the future.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                Fun Fact: The Greeks actually believed in some form of reincarnation for those who earned passage to the Elysian Fields. Just because Zeus killed Metis the first time around, doesn't mean she's gone forever. So Zeus might still have to watch out for that prophecy in the future.
                Is Metis Dead? From my understanding you can't actually kill the greek gods, just wound and imprison them. So i though Metis was still alive in zeus' head, and is the reason athena was fully armored when she emerged from his head.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Penguinbowler View Post
                  Is Metis Dead? From my understanding you can't actually kill the greek gods, just wound and imprison them. So i though Metis was still alive in zeus' head, and is the reason athena was fully armored when she emerged from his head.
                  Metis was a titan. She is generally assumed to be dead, but she could still be buzzing around in Zeus' head... Or maybe she got when Athena did.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by omenseer View Post

                    Metis was a titan. She is generally assumed to be dead, but she could still be buzzing around in Zeus' head... Or maybe she got when Athena did.
                    The Titans are also immortal though, to my understanding at least.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Penguinbowler View Post
                      The Titans are also immortal though, to my understanding at least.

                      Would make sense, as the Gods are the direct offspring of the Titans in Greek mythology.

                      Plus the whole castrating the previous ruler thing would be kind of a dick move, if you could just kill the previous king and be done with it.

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