Geasa

[Squee]

Hey everyone. Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, or if this has been covered somewhere else, but I can't seem to find what the penalties for breaking a Geis are. I can find the PSP where it talks about a Tuatha Scion starting with one, and how they get another if they break or resolve it, and I can see where they can lay one on someone, but not what happens if the Geis is broken.

Can someone direct me to where I might find it? I'm feeling a little slow here.

Many thanks.

[Mateus Luz]

On the top of page 271, in the brown box it says
“Breaking a geis resolves the Condition, and causes you to lose all points of Legend (including those imbued in Boons and marvels). Mortals who break a geis are instead drawn into a life-or-death situation by Fate.”

[Squee]

Oh cheers. Not sure how I missed it. Thanks a ton.

Because it was right. There. I was looking right at it.

This is my life right now :P

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh cheers. Not sure how I missed it. Thanks a ton.

Because it was right. There. I was looking right at it.

This is my life right now :P

Could be worse; you could live next to a murderer who has to paint a wall with blood each day to stop an Eldritch abomination from escaping into this reality.

[Mateus Luz]

Oh cheers. Not sure how I missed it. Thanks a ton.

Because it was right. There. I was looking right at it.

This is my life right now :P

I am not sure what’s the point of Geasa in terms of usefulness. I got it can force creatures to do some weird stuff, but, for the Scion, it’s more like a annoying way to get some momentum with a huge situation if you let it go (losing all legend is not much on lower legend, but by legend 4 you are already having issues to getter all the legend you need).

Aesir innate power is much more interesting, as it gives momentum if you jump into your destine or if you try to avoid it. For Geasa, I would put the Scion on a bad situation if the teas is broken, let’s say a curse related to the teas: if you ever broke the teas you will be cursed to “be attacked by all insects around you for 1 month”, “cause all animals to run from you for 3 days”, “smell bad for a week”, “attract the arrows to you even if you are not the target”, “be critically hit by all the attacks from a certain kind of weapon or attacker”. These geasa are much more fun and related to the weirdness of the Tuata stories.

[Kyman201]

I am not sure what’s the point of Geasa in terms of usefulness. I got it can force creatures to do some weird stuff, but, for the Scion, it’s more like a annoying way to get some momentum with a huge situation if you let it go (losing all legend is not much on lower legend, but by legend 4 you are already having issues to getter all the legend you need).

You do realize you don't need to BREAK a Geis to get Momentum from it, right?

Like, if a Scion has a Geasa that says "You cannot attack a helpless foe" or "You must always accept a surrender", and an antagonist surrenders, sparing the life of the Antagonist even if it's more convenient to just kill them? +Momentum.

If the antagonist escapes because they weren't killed? +Momentum.

If the antagonist shows up again? +Momentum.

If they surrender, making the Scion lower their weapon before the antagonist grabs a hostage? +Momentum.

The Momentum Generation is for when upholding your Geis inconveniences you.

[Mateus Luz]

You get momentum if the Geasa get in the way and cause any kind of complication on your decision.

If you for any reason decide to break it, you instead lose all your legend points. That’s the point I am questioning.

In your example: if you for any reason attack a helpless foe, you lose all your legend points.

Instead of facing a simple lost of legend points, breaking geis would put the scion on a bad condition for a prolonged time.

Using your example, “Don’t attack a helpless foe, other wise all the wounds you cause on them will hit you too.” You get momentum every time you don’t attack a helpless foe, and if you attack you don’t get a momentum and also will get an injurie for each hit you make on the helpeless.

[Watcher]

You get momentum if the Geasa get in the way and cause any kind of complication on your decision.

If you for any reason decide to break it, you instead lose all your legend points. That’s the point I am questioning.

In your example: if you for any reason attack a helpless foe, you lose all your legend points.

Instead of facing a simple lost of legend points, breaking geis would put the scion on a bad condition for a prolonged time.

Using your example, “Don’t attack a helpless foe, other wise all the wounds you cause on them will hit you too.” You get momentum every time you don’t attack a helpless foe, and if you attack you don’t get a momentum and also will get an injurie for each hit you make on the helpeless.

That is, however, not how Gessi work in the stories, and as Scion is seeking to emulate those, it would make little to no sense to implement that change. Traditionally, a Geis should grossly hamper an individual to the point that it will almost inevitably lead to their death in a combat, though Scion bends this rule and makes it possible to recover from them. The mechanical representation of the violation of a Geis is exceptionally well done in my mind, the three strong examples we have of Scions violating them in Saga literature (Conare Mór, Cú Chulainn, and Conall Cernach) are all reasonably interpreted as the instant loss of supernatural power, resulting in the otherwise supernatural figure losing all of their 'oomph' with the immediately following conflict leading to their death.

A Geis is simply either a prohibition (earlier stories) or a compulsion (later stories), the notion of a "If X than Y" 'curse' being placed on someone is both not a Geis and entirely unrelated to Irish Saga literature. It would be as appropriate to give that to the Theoi as the Túatha Dé Danannn, it being equally inappropriate for both.

[Mateus Luz]

That is, however, not how Gessi work in the stories, and as Scion is seeking to emulate those, it would make little to no sense to implement that change. Traditionally, a Geis should grossly hamper an individual to the point that it will almost inevitably lead to their death in a combat, though Scion bends this rule and makes it possible to recover from them. The mechanical representation of the violation of a Geis is exceptionally well done in my mind, the three strong examples we have of Scions violating them in Saga literature (Conare Mór, Cú Chulainn, and Conall Cernach) are all reasonably interpreted as the instant loss of supernatural power, resulting in the otherwise supernatural figure losing all of their 'oomph' with the immediately following conflict leading to their death.

Thanks for your explanation. I guess it’s better this way.

[Fairlyhyperman]

A Geis is simply either a prohibition (earlier stories) or a compulsion (later stories), the notion of a "If X than Y" 'curse' being placed on someone is both not a Geis and entirely unrelated to Irish Saga literature. It would be as appropriate to give that to the Theoi as the Túatha Dé Danannn, it being equally inappropriate for both.

Are there examples in the stories of geasa being weaponized, as in the Lay Geis boon? I've only a limited knowledge of Irish mythology, but that seems a little off.

[Watcher]

Are there examples in the stories of geasa being weaponized, as in the Lay Geis boon? I've only a limited knowledge of Irish mythology, but that seems a little off.

Yeah, that Boon is a bit off. The closest you ever get are two instances where it appears that someone threatens to place a Geis on another to force them to do something they don't want to do. First, by Gráinne in the story of her romance with Diarmuid, where she threatens to shame him if he will not run off with her, and in The Exile of the Suns of Uisliu where Deirdre does the same thing to Naoise.

In both of these situations, the Geas is never placed, and is never directly named, but we can infer it is part of the threat being levied against both men to force them to romance the women. However, the fact that it is never placed I consider to be very important, because it is entirely against the 'point' of a Geis as far as we can tell. You don't place a Geis on someone who you want to force to do something, you place it on someone supernaturally powerful to ensure that society has a chance to keep them under control and prevent them from running rampant. It's why you primarily see them placed on kings and heroes, members of the community with a supernatural connection that could take advantage of the 'public.' So a Geis is placed (though we almost never see this happen on screen) and the person has a collar and chain forged metaphorically.

Now, this is not a bad thing however, having a Geis is never seen as shameful, it's a mark that you are powerful enough to warrant one, and that could be seen as good. But, the idea you are placing a Geis on a random person to force them to comply to your wishes is 100% inapropriate for a Geis, I might replace Lay Geis with a different Boon for my games, help clear the PsP up and make it more consistent in tone and theme.

[Fairlyhyperman]

I might replace Lay Geis with a different Boon for my games, help clear the PsP up and make it more consistent in tone and theme.

Thank you for the information. If you do come up with an alternate boon, please do post it here; I'd love to see it.

[Kyman201]

The mechanical representation of the violation of a Geis is exceptionally well done in my mind, the three strong examples we have of Scions violating them in Saga literature (Conare Mór, Cú Chulainn, and Conall Cernach) are all reasonably interpreted as the instant loss of supernatural power, resulting in the otherwise supernatural figure losing all of their 'oomph' with the immediately following conflict leading to their death.

I attribute this more to Fate being weaker at Hero Tier than it is at Demigod, as CuChullain dying as a direct result of violating his Geis is cited as an example of Fate growing in its teeth, as it were, in the Hero book.

[Mateus Luz]

Thank you for the information. If you do come up with an alternate boon, please do post it here; I'd love to see it.

My suggestion is the opposite of the main motif of the Tuatha, they insult people to use their marvels, so they may to sing about themselves and their deeds to gain some advantage, maybe not sing, but declaim poetry or scream about how powerful they are. I would relate to the virtues, if the Tuatha is virtuous he gains +2 enhancement related to the virtue and +0 on the other, if not +1 in both.

It’s a suggestion... maybe don’t make sense on the myths...

[Seeker1728]

Pardon my necromancy but this thread has become rather relevant to my Scion game. Like the OP, despite the replies, I'm finding it still difficult to sort out how this is an innate "power" and how to govern the use of Lay Geis.

While Watcher's reply helped me see the idea represented within the Tuatha myths, the reality for me is that I have a handful of very creative and results oriented players to lord over...err...co-create stories with. They're fortunately not the sort to abuse system weaknesses, but as one of them pointed out, if we were in a campaign where Vampires were the Big Bad/Mooks, could he take a geis of "Oppose Vampires" and then get a momentum harvesting machine spinning every time he is opposing them in any of the 3 arenas? By the way it reads in the book, I was reluctantly inclined to agree, since "Oppose" can be physical, intrigue or procedural in nature, and any such opposition be it a tiny and fairly inconsequential is just as valid as a throw down with the Prince. Admittedly, this is an abusive approach to the system, and neither he nor I would create a character to cheese the system like this, but it leaves us with a rather unwieldy thing to juggle.

Questions like when is a geis too narrow or toeing the line of being too broad? The Lay Geis touches on the same issue, except that here one can impose it. Here as we discussed this PSP between ourselves, a hypothetical was if the campaign rules say any mortal could learn to wield magic if they either studied hard enough, had a natural talent for it, or were willing to make grim sacrifices. Could Lay Geis be slapped on a Forest Gump type who doesn't have either the talent or intellect, but could dump toxic chemicals into a shrimp fishing zone to sacrifice all the shrimp the fishermen and whatnot depended on. Ol'Forest doesn't really want to learn magic, and doesn't really want to be a eco-terrorist, but Lay Geis seems to suggest he could be forced to do so. (and yes, i realize this would make a great plot twist of creating a antagonist in response to such a misuse, but we're more interested in figuring out the intended range of the ability).

As mentioned, I appreciate Watcher's comment above, but while its within the spirit of Tuatha myths, I'm finding it hard to implement conceptually. The PCs are Scions all starting at the same level, but of the 4 primary pantheons we've decided on making the dominant ones, only the Tuatha Scion is "playing on hard mode" compared to the other 3 who each have a more ...hrm...crunch relevant? not sure what to call it, more equitable to the abilities available from other pantheons I suppose? Hope my clumsy attempt there is understood

But basically, some of other people's takes on Geasa to help me build up a feel for how to handle it. I like the flavor of it, I think it's cool to have a innate obligation/prohibition, but I guess I need a bit more hand holding on that one. Probably due to my many decades of fantasy gaming systems contaminating my thinking but...yeah...some suggestions on its governance to point my brain in the general direction would be much appreciated.