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About the "Antagonists and Variable Stuns" Sidebar on Origin P.116

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  • About the "Antagonists and Variable Stuns" Sidebar on Origin P.116

    So I'm a bit confused about how to interpret the bolded parts in the following section of the sidebar:
    For Stunts with variable success costs versus an
    opponent’s trait, assume that the successes are
    equal to one-half of the opponent’s relevant pool,
    rounding up for Attributes and rounding down for
    Skills
    . For example, grappling a huge but ungainly
    Villain would target their Desperation Pool (5);
    rounding up, that means the Grapple Stunt is 3
    successes once you’ve beaten their Defense. If
    you’re trying to feint at a fast, but obviously unskilled,
    shadow ninja, you’d again target their Desperation
    Pool (5) but round down, for 2 successes.
    Antagonists don't have Attributes and Skills (unless you decided to flesh them out to that level), and the examples in the sidebar would seem to indicate that you basically approximate what would be an Attribute or Skill for an NPC. The problem is that I'm not sure how to make sense of the examples.

    The "huge but ungainly Villain" would presumably be using their Might to resist the grapple attempt, but they could also use the Athletics Skill along with it (again, assuming they had either Attributes or Skills). So I'm not sure why this counts as an example of using an Attribute and thus rounding up.

    Meanwhile, the "obviously unskilled, shadow ninja" would presumably use a Skill like Close Combat (since it makes sense for resisting a feint in combat) but that would also likely be coupled with an Attribute such as Cunning for example. So I don't see why this counts as an example of using a Skill, and thus rounding down; aside from the character being described as "unskilled" but that seems irrelevant in this context of comparing Attributes vs Skills.

    Now if the whole thing had been described as something along the lines of "...assume that the successes are equal to one-half of the opponent’s relevant pool, rounding up in situations when the NPC would be at an obvious advantage (or be naturally qualified) and rounding down when the NPC would be at an obvious disadvantage (or be naturally unqualified)." That, I would definitely understand, and would also match the examples provided just below a whole lot more as I see it.

    So, if anybody could help clarify this that'd be real swell

  • #2
    For Stunts with variable success costs versus an opponent’s trait, assume that the successes are equal to one-half of the opponent’s relevant pool, rounding up for attributes and rounding down for Skills.
    Originally posted by The Voice View Post
    So I'm a bit confused about how to interpret the bolded parts in the following section of the sidebar:

    Antagonists don't have Attributes and Skills (unless you decided to flesh them out to that level), and the examples in the sidebar would seem to indicate that you basically approximate what would be an Attribute or Skill for an NPC. The problem is that I'm not sure how to make sense of the examples.

    The "huge but ungainly Villain" would presumably be using their Might to resist the grapple attempt, but they could also use the Athletics Skill along with it (again, assuming they had either Attributes or Skills). So I'm not sure why this counts as an example of using an Attribute and thus rounding up.

    Meanwhile, the "obviously unskilled, shadow ninja" would presumably use a Skill like Close Combat (since it makes sense for resisting a feint in combat) but that would also likely be coupled with an Attribute such as Cunning for example. So I don't see why this counts as an example of using a Skill, and thus rounding down; aside from the character being described as "unskilled" but that seems irrelevant in this context of comparing Attributes vs Skills.

    Now if the whole thing had been described as something along the lines of "...assume that the successes are equal to one-half of the opponent’s relevant pool, rounding up in situations when the NPC would be at an obvious advantage (or be naturally qualified) and rounding down when the NPC would be at an obvious disadvantage (or be naturally unqualified)." That, I would definitely understand, and would also match the examples provided just below a whole lot more as I see it.

    So, if anybody could help clarify this that'd be real swell
    This is actually for purposes like the Disarm stunt.
    The stunt cost is the Opponents combat skill
    Assuming the Villain was using a pool of 5, the stunt to disarm the Villain would cost 2.

    Assuming a player was using a stunt that was variable on an attribute, the cost would be 3, assuming the same pool

    Comment


    • #3
      Alright, so I went and looked at each individual Variable Cost Stunt. I noted them down for my own benefit but I'll leave the list below anyways, in case it's relevant to anyone else who might come upon this thread in search of information on this topic.

      It turns out that my question was, indeed, not too hard to answer for almost all Variable Cost Stunts, except one: "Establish Grapple," which states that it has a Variable Cost but doesn't state any Attribute or Skill. The "Grappled" Sidebar on P.117 doesn't really help either, it mentions various dice pools that can be used during a grapple, but all of them are Attribute + Skill.

      So, at this point my quest is mostly over, the mystery has been solved for almost all Variable Cost Stuns, except for "Establish Grapple." Does anyone know how much that one should cost?

      Also, as I was reviewing the text in the book just before posting this, I realized that the example in the sidebar (P.116) is flawed. The second example uses "Feint" as an example of a Variable Cost Stunt, but that one isn't based on an opponent's trait (Skill or Attribute), the variable cost of "Feint" determines how much Enhancement you provide on your, or an opponent's, next attack against the target.
      Sooooo, another oopsie that wasn't reported in the Errata I guess?


      Here's the list I compiled while looking through all the Combat Stunts.

      DEFENSIVE STUNTS
      "Roll Away" cost is equal to the opponent's Composure.

      CLOSE COMBAT ATTACK STUNTS
      "Establish Grapple" doesn't specify any Attribute or Skill. (That one is a problem.)
      "Feint" variable cost specified in its description.
      "Shove" variable cost specified in its description.

      GRAPPLING STUNT
      "Gain Control" variable cost specified in its description.
      "Throw" variable cost specified in its description.

      RANGED ATTACK STUNTS
      "Disarm" cost based on the opponent's Combat Skill.
      "Knock Down" cost based on the opponent's Stamina.
      "Pin" variable cost specified in its description.

      THROWN ATTACK STUNTS
      "Disarm" cost based on the opponent's Combat Skill.
      "Line Drive" cost based on the opponent's Might.

      Comment


      • #4
        From the sidebar, it's saying you take the relevant dice pool and half it.

        If the Stunt Difficulty asks for a Skill, you round down.

        If the Stunt Difficulty asks for an Attribute, you round up.

        The sidebar isn't talking about an OPPONENT'S Skill or Attribute. As you note, they don't have them. It's specifying if the STUNT is asking for a Skill or Attribute.

        So with those Thrown Attack Stunts, assuming the relevant Dice Pool is, oh, 7? You halve that to get 3.5.

        To use the Disarm Stunt for a Thrown Attack, that's asking for a Combat Skill. So that's a skill, so you round down. So the Stunt to Disarm this foe costs 3 successes.

        To use Line Drive, it's asking for Might, which is an Attribute. In this case, the Line Drive Stunt's difficulty is 4.

        As for Establishing a Grapple, I go like this: You meet the opponent's defense, and spend any number of successes on the Stunt. These represent the control you have, and the Difficulty to gain control.

        Hope this helps


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

        Comment


        • #5
          Kyman201 did a great explanation and I have nothing to add on this.

          The entire point of the Antagonist idea is: you don’t need to create a full character for a simple guy. You just put a few thing he is good, how good he is in those things and Ta-Da, you have enough to play. From that info you get some basic stuff that would be on a regular character sheet, and that’s what they are talking when say it’s half of the dice pool.

          But if you prefere it’s always possible to create an entire character from scratch, and it’s suggested you do for the main villain and maybe a few more.

          Comment


          • #6
            Origin P.116 (Same sidebar as posted in my first post)
            For Stunts with variable success costs versus an
            opponent’s trait
            , assume that the successes are
            equal to one-half of the opponent’s relevant pool,
            rounding up for Attributes and rounding down for
            Skills.

            This very clearly states that it's based on the opponent's trait. As for the Variable cost thing, as I already established on my second post, it is in fact very clearly based on the opponent's trait, which in the case of most Stunts (except for "Establish Grapple") is stated in the Cost entry of the Stunt itself. Now as outlined in the same Sidebar, in the examples at the bottom of the Sidebar, in the case of NPCs instead of using the listed trait (Attribute or Skill, which they normally don't have) you use a relevant dice pool adjusted up or down based on whether the cost normally varies based on an Attribute or a Skill.

            Also, the very idea that a Stunt would cost MORE for a character because they're BETTER at a task.....

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok, when we talk about the dice pool we are talking about the Antagonist Dice Pool, not the character dice pool...

              Antagonists have 3 dice pools, Primary, Secundary and Desperation, according to the action or what he must resist you use one of them.
              Last edited by Mateus Luz; 06-07-2019, 03:47 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                I was responding to Kyman201, who specifically said "The sidebar isn't talking about an OPPONENT'S Skill or Attribute."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Voice View Post
                  Also, the very idea that a Stunt would cost MORE for a character because they're BETTER at a task.....
                  You're putting words in my mouth. Words I never said.

                  I never once implied that a Stunt would be more difficult for someone more skilled.

                  I'll try to make it even more clear.

                  I assume the root of your confusion stems from this:

                  Several Stunts set their difficulty equal to the Opponent's Attribute or Skill, while Antagonists don't have those, please help
                  Now, the Sidebar addresses this by telling you this.

                  If a Stunt target's an antagonist's Attribute or Skill, which they lack, use half of the relevant dice pool as the difficulty. If the Stunt's difficulty is equal to the Opponent's Skill, round down. If the Stunt's difficulty is equal to an Opponent's Attribute, round up.
                  Is there anything else about the base problem you're having trouble with?


                  Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                  Comment

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