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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sheeted Kid View Post

    Thanks! That helps.

    That being the case (and this question goes out to everyone, not just Kyman), do you have any thoughts on what a Condition like Battered would entail? My own sense is that being battered involves either:
    --Getting struck by a number of relatively minor blows; this would likely result in being disoriented, possibly to the point where it could conceivably affect any action one attempts.
    --Getting coated in a mixture of flour, milk, water, and possibly other ingredients; this would likely result in being more delicious if one subsequently gets cooked. (Probably not relevant in this context, unless one has been captured by hungry giants or somesuch.)

    Or do you suppose the intent is that you don't get a general Battered Condition, so much as you get a "Battered Arm" or "Battered Ribcage" (so that the penalty would, in fact, only apply to your Defense, certain actions, etc.)?
    Okay, first off, the idea of "Covered in batter" made me chuckle heartily, thank you.

    Secondly, yeah, you probably would be picking ones that are more specific.

    While I'm at it, the rules (on page 121 of Origin) say that when a character takes damage, the player chooses to take a Bruised, Injured, or Maimed Condition, if available. So if my character gets walloped by a haymaker from a random street thug, I could opt to take the damage at the Injured (or even Maimed) level even if I have a Bruised level free, right? Are there any circumstances where it would be advantageous to do so? And does that mean I tell the Storyguide which injury level I'm taking, and then he/she decides what the corresponding Injury Condition will be?
    I mean, technically you can jump right to an Injured or Maimed injury, but there's no real advantage to doing so, as it hits you with a potential penalty greater than you need. And ideally you and the GM will discuss what kind of injury you take.

    GM: "Okay, that hits, so his knife actually hits you."

    Player: "Okay, I'll take it as a -1 Condition."

    GM: "Right, a small one... Want to call it like, Nicked Shoulder?"

    Player: "Yeah, that sounds good."


    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

      No, that’s not true. Trinity is not designed with the same propose than Scion, it’s intended for a mortal level development, so it uses other opinion to handle things that have a large impact but short time recovering.

      By standard it takes a few days to recover from injuries, if not weeks, If the characters are hit by an stun gun and get stunned for a week, you (as a player) are not going to feel the difference between it and a shot. In Scion, it’s easy to find some fast healing (at least for the PCs), so it doesn't matter if it was a punch, a stab or a stun gun, as long you don’t die, it’s not going to last too long.
      Building on Johan's question, would it be worth it to get the Trinity book to see some of the mechanics to supplement things that I (or potentially he) feel are unclear in Scion? I have to admit, I've been following some threads and have been as confused about things in Scion as Johan.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by CritCat View Post
        Building on Johan's question, would it be worth it to get the Trinity book to see some of the mechanics to supplement things that I (or potentially he) feel are unclear in Scion? I have to admit, I've been following some threads and have been as confused about things in Scion as Johan.
        I've glanced at Trinity, I wouldn't recommend using it as a Scion Supplement. The two both use Storypath, but they're different ENOUGH that the two don't mesh perfectly. The two aren't exactly cross-compatible.

        My groups and I have been getting by with just Origin and Hero, with occasional moments where I've talked it out with other fans, but honestly I've found the system to work pretty well without even needing to look at Trinity.

        Edit: Anything in particular you'd like me to help explain?
        Last edited by Kyman201; 06-09-2019, 02:26 PM.


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by CritCat View Post
          Building on Johan's question, would it be worth it to get the Trinity book to see some of the mechanics to supplement things that I (or potentially he) feel are unclear in Scion? I have to admit, I've been following some threads and have been as confused about things in Scion as Johan.
          Scion and Trinity are different, as different as they were in their 1e.

          Honestly, I am a big fan of Trinity, and I do think Scion lack some aspects form the Storypath System from Trinity that are fun. But Scion have a different Focus, mainly on character development, Trinity is about regular people that get powers, they are not filling archetypes, they are not doing deeds, they are not building their legends, they are only learning to use their powers and developing their skills.

          As I said, if you want a game focused on mortals, Trinity would be more useful, but you can’t play Trinity with Purviews and expect the same feeling as Scion, it’s not going to be. Same thing in the other way, Trinity is not going to be the same if you get Knacks and Callings, because the expectations are different.

          Don’t go after Trinity if you want rules for Scion, as Trinity have some of the same issues Johan is finding in Scion. It’s not a rule based game, it’s Narrative based game, the rules are quite open to interpretation and sometimes even feel illogical or pointing to opposite and contradictory directions, all because the focus is to give a structure to tell stories and not a set of rules to play a simulation.

          If you want to play a game of regular people with some powers, Trinity is a great game, have the flexibility you need for action and more flexibility on character creation. It worth every penny and is a good example of how 2 games using the same system can be different by change slightly the rules.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
            I've glanced at Trinity, I wouldn't recommend using it as a Scion Supplement. The two both use Storypath, but they're different ENOUGH that the two don't mesh perfectly. The two aren't exactly cross-compatible.

            My groups and I have been getting by with just Origin and Hero, with occasional moments where I've talked it out with other fans, but honestly I've found the system to work pretty well without even needing to look at Trinity.

            Edit: Anything in particular you'd like me to help explain?
            That's good to know. I've mostly been gleaning off of posts as I go through the books. Many times an answer can be found answered on the forum already. I was just lucky enough to happen upon the stun question at this time. I will not hijack this thread with my own questions unless they relate (other weapon tags or some such). However, thank you for the offer. I will make a thread if something pops up on my radar which the forum hasn't explained already. If there is an online reference that might clarify weapon tags, however, I would not be against it. Stun was the burning one atm.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by CritCat View Post
              That's good to know. I've mostly been gleaning off of posts as I go through the books. Many times an answer can be found answered on the forum already. I was just lucky enough to happen upon the stun question at this time. I will not hijack this thread with my own questions unless they relate (other weapon tags or some such). However, thank you for the offer. I will make a thread if something pops up on my radar which the forum hasn't explained already. If there is an online reference that might clarify weapon tags, however, I would not be against it. Stun was the burning one atm.
              The thing about Stun is, as Samudra noted upthread, is that in addition to the kinds of injuries it inflicts, it doesn't kill. That's the big thing to keep in mind and the big advantage. Much like Aggravated damage explicitly requires magic to heal. If, say, you have some kind of Curse on you that says you aren't allowed to kill people, or your character has moral reasons to not do so, a stun weapon would be a VERY good investment.


              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                Not how the game works. If you take out an enemy with a gun, you can very easily kill them if that's the sort of game being run. From the section on Taking Out "It’s up to the Storyguide to judge the tone of the campaign and determine whether or not a character has been permanently slain". I am also unclear what Stunt your referring to, since none seem to have any way of incapacitating enemies outside of the ones that inflict damage.


                Except the player doesn't have control over the universe. Just their character. "the overriding mechanic to the entire game is “players win” and “narrative first”" isn't a thing. If you're using a shotgun and shoot a person with it at point-blank range causing them to be taken out.... then your SG has a pretty good justification for the dude just outright dying.... Now the player could try to say they try to shoot the dude in the legs, which is fine because he can state what his intent is. But that's all that is. Intent. They might intend to shoot someone in the legs, but maybe they aren't accurate enough for that and get the person in the gut, or maybe the person was already severely injured by previous attacks, and they bleed out shortly after you shoot them in the legs.

                And yes, you can incapacitate people with things without stun. It's that it Will always incapacitate rather than kill, but sometimes things will happen where you hit someone on the back of the head and they crack their heads into the pavement and die. The tag is a narrative certainty that "When a character is Taken Out by a weapon with the Stun tag, they are knocked unconscious".


                Technically you can have more than 3 tags through the birthrights system.


                Dude, tone down the constant hostility. It's ridiculous.


                I'd say all three would work, though the first would probably be more mechanically limited than the next action they commit. Could make it harder for them to dodge because of them needing a second to get their bearing with that one?

                And yes, you get to choose what severity of damage condition you take s you could choose a more severe injury condition than the lowest one you have available. As for benefits, a bigger injury might have more broad instances that are penalized by it, thus giving you a higher opportunity for momentum. Finally, I would say yes you should tell the SG who should quickly tell you what sorta condition you get.


                Point 1: "...Stunts to improve their character's position or further their goal." Scion Origin Page 67. All it has to do is link back to the action, affect a different skill or attribute combination than the one the player used and be narrated how they change the scene.

                I.e. Dex (or Cunning)+ Firearms to shoot, Int+Medicine to shoot in a nonlethal location to incap rather then kill. Done.

                Point 2: Players choose their damage penalties, players choose their dice pools. The narrative is always paramount. It's all over the game. Something this forum drilled into me constantly on another thread. Everything in this game is themed around the 'narrative.' After all it's a "Storypath system," and time is divided by Scene, Act, Episode, Arc, Season, and Series. Powers don't last set amounts of time but 'milestones' making them indefinite periods that last as long.

                Point 3: There is nothing in the Birthrights system I have seen that explicitly states that the any rule about weapons and armor only being allowed 3 tags is suspended. (And I looked for suspension rules repeatedly).

                Point 4: You explicitly quoted me, in which I state a rule that only applies to players (a fact that is ridiculous in it's own right but that's a whole different argument) and then quoted the rule about Antagonists which I'd already explicitly excluded from my statement. Now if you want to be technical, Antagonists does say that all Antagonists have a "Taken Out" Health Condition, which means that by text all systematics of that condition should be automatically be transferred to Antagonists as well. So yes, you would be correct, but that actually flies in the face of the entire system of the Taken Out sections that I was talking about, but if we do port everything over, as you seem to wish to do, congradulations: A hero can never kill anything Demi-god tier or higher. A mortal can never kill anything Hero tier or higher. So either the Taken Out condition is only partially applicable (as I inferred), or Heroes are never capable of killing Demi-god tier antagonists (a fact repeatedly disproven in actual myth.)

                Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                Johan, the game's just not going to stop requiring fill-in-the-blank consequences and player/GM fiat. You have things you want it to do, and those are different from what the creators want it to do. You can keep trying to prove that a cupcake isn't a ricecake, but it's not going to change that.

                Also, who's the audience for these threads? You're not going to convince the people who're playing the game successfully that they're not. And your questions have been answered according to the intent of the books, you just don't like that intent.
                I got my answer. Which apparently is best found in Trinity. I honestly could care less what success or failures people have. I loathe this system. But my players insist on torturing me with it, and since they are my God, I must learn it. And since the book is indecipherable and written to be inaccessible to people like me, I am forced to further subject myself to the abuses of this forum to gain clarifications here.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
                  But my players insist on torturing me with it, and since they are my God, I must learn it.
                  I don't want to tell you how to live your life or make any assumptions about your personal situation, but that really doesn't sound healthy. Even if you're exaggerating for effect, that statement is not indicative of a positive Player-GM relationship. Your main problem here might be something more important than a poorly written game system. Maybe you don't need a better game, maybe you need better players.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
                    I got my answer. Which apparently is best found in Trinity. I honestly could care less what success or failures people have. I loathe this system. But my players insist on torturing me with it, and since they are my God, I must learn it. And since the book is indecipherable and written to be inaccessible to people like me, I am forced to further subject myself to the abuses of this forum to gain clarifications here.
                    If your friends are making you do this, they should stop. Like, seriously, if you loathe it, you shouldn't have to play it.

                    And honestly? If you don't care how other people are playing the game, a forum isn't the place to be.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
                      I loathe this system. But my players insist on torturing me with it, and since they are my God, I must learn it. And since the book is indecipherable and written to be inaccessible to people like me, I am forced to further subject myself to the abuses of this forum to gain clarifications here.
                      So this has been flagged by a few people as a group attack, but if you truly feel the forum is being this abusive to you then I'm going to give you some time away from it.
                      I suggest looking up mindfulness techniques and prioritising your own health because at the end of the day, this is a ridiculous amount of fuss over a game system.




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                      • #26
                        Despite him being banned I'm going to respond to some of his points for anyone who is finds this thread later looking for clarity on the game.

                        Originally posted by JohanDracys View Post
                        Point 1: "...Stunts to improve their character's position or further their goal." Scion Origin Page 67. All it has to do is link back to the action, affect a different skill or attribute combination than the one the player used and be narrated how they change the scene.

                        I.e. Dex (or Cunning)+ Firearms to shoot, Int+Medicine to shoot in a nonlethal location to incap rather then kill. Done.
                        What your describing doesn't fit into any of the three types of stunt listed in the section you are quoting, as you aren't giving anyone a complication, enhancement or trying to increase the difficulty of an action. You could use a complication stunt to add the complication of "Injured Leg" to an enemy to make it harder for them to move around, but that wont incapacitate them, it'll just give them the complication.

                        Also, none of the stunts retcon the action you previously did. Stunts take what you did, and extend it so that you can get benefits on other things or make things more difficult for your enemies.

                        Finally, while there is a list of Stunts for the various different types of attack rolls that expand what stunts can do for attacks, none of them allow you to decide to flat incapacitate an enemy outside of deal damage or critical which work by lowering the targets health to give them Taken Out. Closest you can do to incapacitation with the other stunts is to try and disarm your enemy if they are a weapon-reliant foe though technically they can still keep fighting it'll just give you much better odds.

                        Point 2: Players choose their damage penalties, players choose their dice pools. The narrative is always paramount. It's all over the game. Something this forum drilled into me constantly on another thread. Everything in this game is themed around the 'narrative.' After all it's a "Storypath system," and time is divided by Scene, Act, Episode, Arc, Season, and Series. Powers don't last set amounts of time but 'milestones' making them indefinite periods that last as long.
                        Just because something is a narrative game that does give players a level of agency does not mean that the overriding mechanics are things like "players win", especially since the game is actually specifically designed in mind with the players failing frequently and often suffering set backs. This is one of the reasons the momentum/consolations/take down mechanics were written in the way they were, so the players can lose without it meaning the game hits a brick wall.

                        Point 3: There is nothing in the Birthrights system I have seen that explicitly states that the any rule about weapons and armor only being allowed 3 tags is suspended. (And I looked for suspension rules repeatedly).
                        Relic birthright rules explicitly talk about how they can have additional tags and can remove tags from a weapon, and provide mechanics on how such things alter the dot rating of the birthright. See pg. 212 of Hero for these rules.

                        Point 4: You explicitly quoted me, in which I state a rule that only applies to players (a fact that is ridiculous in it's own right but that's a whole different argument) and then quoted the rule about Antagonists which I'd already explicitly excluded from my statement. Now if you want to be technical, Antagonists does say that all Antagonists have a "Taken Out" Health Condition, which means that by text all systematics of that condition should be automatically be transferred to Antagonists as well. So yes, you would be correct, but that actually flies in the face of the entire system of the Taken Out sections that I was talking about, but if we do port everything over, as you seem to wish to do, congradulations: A hero can never kill anything Demi-god tier or higher. A mortal can never kill anything Hero tier or higher. So either the Taken Out condition is only partially applicable (as I inferred), or Heroes are never capable of killing Demi-god tier antagonists (a fact repeatedly disproven in actual myth.)
                        It is specifically not a rule that only applies to players, so excluding it is just blatantly wrong and based on a misunderstanding of the rules. I am unsure why you would say that it is "technical" that Antagonists follow those rules, when it is just the basic reading. It does not fly in the face of the Taken Out section, as all of it works just as well for Antagonists as it does Protagonists. Yes, characters cannot kill higher tier characters. If you want to kill a god, you need to get on their level. Otherwise you can just severely injure them.
                        Last edited by milo v3; 06-09-2019, 11:06 PM.


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                        • #27
                          On a tangential note, I think this whole discussion arrives from the different perspective on the game.

                          Storyteller and D&D (specially 3.5) are more rule focused games, focused in world where the world is a board and each being follow the same rules. There, you live or die thanks to a roll of the dice and slight better planning.

                          M&M and Scion are more narrative focused games, focused in telling a collective story, where things happen and develop in order to advance such story. There, you live or die depending on the narrative weight of your actions. There villains and heroes are not equally weighted, as narratives usually need the hero to live and villains to die (or be neutralized, at least). It is not supposed to be equal to both sides.

                          I love both systems, but the differences must be taken into account. I love seeing players win in D&D because they are using every single advantage on the field, and also love seeing they start loosing because a kobold is shooting arrows from a slight above location. In Scion, is not that I am not going to kill a character, but the villains are much more prone to capture for later than to outward killing.

                          As a wise DM I once played with said: "The needs of the story out-weights the needs of the real."

                          Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                          It is specifically not a rule that only applies to players, so excluding it is just blatantly wrong and based on a misunderstanding of the rules. I am unsure why you would say that it is "technical" that Antagonists follow those rules, when it is just the basic reading. It does not fly in the face of the Taken Out section, as all of it works just as well for Antagonists as it does Protagonists. Yes, characters cannot kill higher tier characters. If you want to kill a god, you need to get on their level. Otherwise you can just severely injure them.
                          Actually they can. One of the abilities of the Guide Birthright is to invoke Deus ex Machina, which ups the Tier of the character for a scene, which would be enough to kill a more powerful being. As I would consider even this attempt happens after a good while of chronicle, I would say most characters would end up with at least a one dot guide, which should be enough.
                          Yes, Heroes cannot kill gods, but can kill some pretty nasty stuff fair out-weighting themselves. Like Hercules after the Gigantomachy, or a Valkyrie.
                          Also, at least in 1ed there was a relic that allowed you to kill high-legend creatures, as there you couldnt kill anything that was higher legend than you, and I could see this occurring in 2ed. A relic that considers you a tier high, or even a character weilding a higher tier relic (like Mjolnir from Thor or a Lighting Javelin from Zeus).

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Manbat View Post
                            Actually they can. One of the abilities of the Guide Birthright is to invoke Deus ex Machina, which ups the Tier of the character for a scene, which would be enough to kill a more powerful being. As I would consider even this attempt happens after a good while of chronicle, I would say most characters would end up with at least a one dot guide, which should be enough.
                            Neat, I had forgotten that.
                            Last edited by milo v3; 06-10-2019, 05:49 AM.


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                            • #29
                              So, to simplify things - Injury levels for PCs and enemies are -1, -2 and -4, yes? And then for each Injury character take, you make narrative appropriate Condition?


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                                I mean, technically you can jump right to an Injured or Maimed injury, but there's no real advantage to doing so, as it hits you with a potential penalty greater than you need.
                                I haven't gotten to run or play, yet (so grain of salt and all that), but I could see and instance where you need to generate momentum for the group, and the bigger penalty increases the chance the condition will cause a failure. I assume that's going to be pretty edge-case, though.

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