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A few mechanical questions

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Xelian View Post
    Another question - What exactly counts as "active" knacks. It says you can only have 5 knacks active and those must correspond to your calling dots with Immortal taking 2 dots. Let's say for example that I have Master of Weapons and Tempered on. Can I drop them and activate Perfect defense for example. Are they considered always active on only when triggered? Does knacks which say - at the start of the scene remain active for the whole scene or only when triggered? Do they take a calling dot "slot".
    If you have a Knack 'Slotted', generally that's what I'd call Active. Generally, you can only swap your Knacks between sessions.

    So, let's say you have Warrior 2, Guardian 2, and Lover 1 (The Shonen Protagonist Array). And let's say you have Master of Weapons, Tempered, A Vigil, A Purpose, and On Your Side, again from your initial suit.

    Those five Knacks would go into the 'slots' formed by your Calling Dots. While they're slotted, those are your Active Knacks. Even if you're not actively using the benefits of A Vigil, that's still something that you can do without spending Momentum. It can always be used. So they're Active.

    Now if you wanted to, say, swap out Master of Weapons and Tempered for the Warrior Immortal Knack "They're Everywhere" (which you picked up with XP), you could do that between sessions. In that case, Master of Weapons and Tempered are no longer Activate Knacks, while They're Everywhere is.


    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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    • #17
      I think you misunderstood what I mean. Currently my character have 2 warrior 2 Judge and 1 Guardian. I have picked 2 bonus Knacks from the Hero character creation Step 9. So I have 7 knacks. I can only have 5 of them active corresponding to my dots. If you can only swap knack in-between sessions that beats the purpose of obtaining more knacks in the future or picking the bonus from character creation. Or severely limits it. Usually you have no idea exactly what will happen in the next session so you can tell yourself whether to pick Lie Detector or Eye of an Eye for example. I look at those like Instant and Sustained knacks to be honest. I don't think Eye for an Eye is Active for more than 1 turn although you must have a free calling dot to trigger it.
      Last edited by Xelian; 07-22-2019, 04:21 AM.

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      • #18
        There's an alternate method for assigning Knacks that I use in my games. Basically, you start your games with your slots empty, and you can then declare which Knacks are slotted as you need them. But once you declare, they're set for the game.

        So for your example, you have your Judge Slots, and you start the game with them undeclared. But then, when a fight comes up, you declare "I want to have Eye for an Eye as one of my Active Knacks", and for the rest of the session, Eye for an Eye takes up one of your Judge Slots. This means you can nab your Knacks as they become useful.

        An alternative method I came up with is that once your Knacks are set, you can, if you need to do an emergency respec, spend a point of Momentum to swap out any number of Knacks. Please note this isn't a standard play method and would require GM approval.

        You can also try the following methods for knowing what will occur in the next session:
        • Very few sessions end on a story arc break. Generally you and the other players will have half an idea of what you're gonna be up to next time. So plan around that.
          • Example: If you and your party ended last session with enemies pulling out weapons and your GM going "And we'll pick up against next week", maybe kit up for combat.
        • Ask your GM. Maybe not for exact details, but going "Hey is this next session gonna be a talky session or a fighty session? I want to know if I should kit up for asskicking or interrogation". Shockingly, most GMs aren't horrible people and are willing to go "Hm, it's a tense situation. Expect some violence". Scion assumes a certain level of transparency and communication between GM and Players.
        Also, your main point... No, duration has no effect whatsoever on whether a Knack is considered Active or not. Whether it's slotted into your Knack Slot does.


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
          There's an alternate method for assigning Knacks that I use in my games. Basically, you start your games with your slots empty, and you can then declare which Knacks are slotted as you need them. But once you declare, they're set for the game.

          Also, your main point... No, duration has no effect whatsoever on whether a Knack is considered Active or not. Whether it's slotted into your Knack Slot does.
          Is this stated anywhere in the book? Because for me this kill the system mechanically and I cannot agree that it works like that. As I said it makes absolutely no sense to take extra knacks which you will almost never use. For 4 Birthrights you will get some kind of powerful relics or 2 knacks which will never be used. I clearly remember that on a minor milestone you are allowed to swap a knack for a completely different one you haven't taken.


          "Without a Legend trait (see Scion: Hero p. 187), anyone with access to supernatural Knacks may only use one at a time without character Tweaks, though
          they may know multiple Knacks." That's a direct quote from the book. By your definition an Origin character have access to 5 knacks but each session he will only use one.

          Last edited by Xelian; 07-22-2019, 08:45 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Xelian View Post

            Is this stated anywhere in the book? Because for me this kill the system mechanically and I cannot agree that it works like that. As I said it makes absolutely no sense to take extra knacks which you will almost never use. For 4 Birthrights you will get some kind of powerful relics or 2 knacks which will never be used. I clearly remember that on a minor milestone you are allowed to swap a knack for a completely different one you haven't taken.
            Originally posted by Origin Page 105
            Without a Legend trait (see Scion: Hero p. 187), anyone with access to supernatural Knacks may only use one at a time without character Tweaks, though they may know multiple Knacks.
            Hero states that you can change Knacks at Minor Milestones on Page 223, though it depends heavily on your story structure how common those will be... you may well end the session without achieving any milestones, and given that the example of a Minor Milestone in the story is 'get water from every Ocean in the World' and 'move a hill' (Page 280 of Hero), you likely will end the Session before doing either, at which point you get to swap out Knacks anyway.

            Kyman's alternate rule for filling in your Knack slots during the session instead of all at once in the beginning is taken from the In-Session Tweaks sidebar on Page 99 of Origin, and is the one my group uses as well, letting you tailor your choices to the events in game instead of trying to do real life Prophecy to predict what you might need.

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            • #21
              Page 99 from Origins. Pretty sure that text refers to that.

              "Swap out an existing Knack for a new Knack. If the character has purchased a new Knack, they may “swap” out their known Knack for another. At the level of Scion: Origin,characters may only have one Knack active at a time."

              Milestones and end session allows you to completely chose a new knack. Not from those you already have purchased but from the whole list. What you are doing is completely wrong in my opinion and severely limits the character options and fun in the game.

              Let's leave the Hero for a while and focus on Origin. You are telling me that out of the 5 knacks I have chosen to somehow define my character I can only use one each session? Or even worse - each milestone?
              Last edited by Xelian; 07-22-2019, 09:19 AM.

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              • #22
                That is exactly what is written in the book. You can have multiple knacks on Origin level, but can use only one of them per session. In other words, you can use only one knack per session, multiple times, but only one.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Xelian View Post
                  Let's leave the Hero for a while and focus on Origin. You are telling me that out of the 5 knacks I have chosen to somehow define my character I can only use one each session? Or even worse - each milestone?
                  As I mentioned, where I quoted Page 105 of Origin, yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. You can only use one Knack a session at Origin.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                    That is exactly what is written in the book. You can have multiple knacks on Origin level, but can use only one of them per session. In other words, you can use only one knack per session, multiple times, but only one.
                    No. It doesn't say anywhere that it is per session. It says - one of the at a time. Like if you have Doctors Kit activated at the start of the scene you cannot benefit from Lover not a Fighter for example. That's what One at a time means. Your interpretations doesn't make sense at all - it is like using a single spell as a Mage in World of Darkness or only using a single Charm in Exalted.

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                    • #25
                      I think its better if you see it as using the term "equipped"
                      At Origin your scion can only have 1 knack equipped at a time. But your character can ... know more than 1 knack.
                      As statted before a way to make knowing more than 1 knack useful (when taking the option at character creation of 2 extra knack) is to start the game with no knack equipped and then when it is useful to equip one of the knack you know.
                      I also make use, in my game, of the houserule to allow switching which knacks are equipped for 1 momentum.
                      I hope this help


                      Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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                      • #26
                        It seems you are right. That makes Scion one hell of a boring system to play Especially at Origin level. That people have resorted to house rules is a proof that this isn't working properly. I'll stick with free knacks changing after scenes. I think it will end up in a way more funnier game. And people will actually have a reason to chose the 2 extra knacks over 4 birthrights.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Xelian View Post

                          No. It doesn't say anywhere that it is per session. It says - one of the at a time. Like if you have Doctors Kit activated at the start of the scene you cannot benefit from Lover not a Fighter for example. That's what One at a time means. Your interpretations doesn't make sense at all - it is like using a single spell as a Mage in World of Darkness or only using a single Charm in Exalted.
                          This is neither Mage, nor Exalted... it is a completely different system from either, to begin with, so those comparisons are not useful. And our interpretations make perfect sense... 'You can only use a single Knack every session. You may use it as many times as you want, but only the one" is a pretty simple concept. I can understand wanting to house rule that... as we've noted, we all do exactly that, but that is the baseline assumption of the game.

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                          • #28
                            Ooof i must be a more curmudgeony person than you are. If houseruling something (weither mechanic wise or settingwise) means its a boring system or not working properly, thats means that all games out there are boring and not working properly. Since you have houserules for all systems.
                            To be fair about the knack switching houserule. I keep it there for players to be confortable about trying as many knacks as they want so that we can learn the system better. Once its no longer a new system ill play with knacks as is with following the advice of the book of keeping slots unequiped at the most.
                            Regardleas in 23 game sessions there hasnt been the need once to use momentum to switch knacks.
                            Make of that what you will.


                            Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                              Ooof i must be a more curmudgeony person than you are. If houseruling something (weither mechanic wise or settingwise) means its a boring system or not working properly, thats means that all games out there are boring and not working properly. Since you have houserules for all systems.
                              To be fair about the knack switching houserule. I keep it there for players to be confortable about trying as many knacks as they want so that we can learn the system better. Once its no longer a new system ill play with knacks as is with following the advice of the book of keeping slots unequiped at the most.
                              Regardleas in 23 game sessions there hasnt been the need once to use momentum to switch knacks.
                              Make of that what you will.
                              Well even the unequipped slots are your house rule. Samudra and Kyman are right. I found Naell's post saying you only swap knacks at the end of session regarding Origin. For me this kills the purpose of having extra knacks and makes playing an Origin character quite boring. You are one trick pony. It is much better to invest your XP somewhere else where it will always be in effect rather than taking "options" which will probably never be able to use Considering that end of a session is quite often an arbitrary moment (at least for my group) mostly based on - we run out of time today I see no reason why swapping "equipped" knacks should only be allowed than. As a player I will have much more enjoyment if I can prepare for a scene with my best knacks. This will require some thinking ahead.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Xelian View Post

                                Well even the unequipped slots are your house rule. Samudra and Kyman are right. I found Naell's post saying you only swap knacks at the end of session regarding Origin. For me this kills the purpose of having extra knacks and makes playing an Origin character quite boring. You are one trick pony. It is much better to invest your XP somewhere else where it will always be in effect rather than taking "options" which will probably never be able to use Considering that end of a session is quite often an arbitrary moment (at least for my group) mostly based on - we run out of time today I see no reason why swapping "equipped" knacks should only be allowed than. As a player I will have much more enjoyment if I can prepare for a scene with my best knacks. This will require some thinking ahead.
                                Regarding your first point... I am sure some people will find it not worthwhile, for example, most of my players went straight for more Birthrights and never even looked twice at more Knacks. Regarding your second point, I actually see that making it worthwhile for a gamemaster to end on a cliff hanger or just before entering a significant change of circumstance as that will allow their players to swap up Knacks as appropriate leading into the next session.

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