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Feeling a bit skeptical about Dragon now to be honest

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mike McCall View Post
    I'm just hoping that there's good material to steal for the dragon character in my Hong Kong game. I'm not integrating the dragons as a faction stuff, because my game is complex enough already, but I'm sure my player will appreciate some new options.
    Most likely! The game will have a ton of new Knacks.


    Neall Raemonn Price
    Beleaguered Scion Developer

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
      I for one am very curious what kind of powers DRAGONS will get.
      I'm not sure why you put "DRAGONS" in all-caps over and over like that, but I couldn't help but read it in my head like the PowerThirst ads.

      ​"Give PowerThirst to your babies and they'll fly as fast as DRAGONS against actual DRAGONS and it'll be a tie and-" and all that.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        I'm not sure why you put "DRAGONS" in all-caps over and over like that, but I couldn't help but read it in my head like the PowerThirst ads.

        That was my intention, actually!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Neall View Post
          Please don't insult Rich or Danielle or anyone else at Onyx Path. Rich has been supportive of me and this line since day one, when we've had conflicting goals, he and Eddy have been extremely willing to work with me to find a creative synthesis that satisfies everyone.
          A little late to this, but I want to chime in to support everything Neall and the others have said. Danielle, Rich, Eddy, and everyone else on the team is dedicated to being supportive and respectful of diverse cultures. Please try to remember that there are actual, individual people behind these projects who all work very hard.


          Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
          Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

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          • #35
            Even if you have reservations about the direction of the Dragon book, personal attacks (including accusations of of cultural misapprocion/erasure without even looking at the work in question) is both rude, tacky and unhelpful.

            I confess that when I heard about the 'ancient dragon masters of the World' angle it did not endear me to the project. But that in no way means that the project or the people working on it are bad and suggesting otherwise is incredibly disrespectful.

            They deserve better.


            Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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            • #36
              I had somewhat mixed feelings about Dragon initially. Having read the interview, those feelings have upgraded to intensely mixed on both sides. I'm willing to hold judgment until we have a text.

              But I really want to see a text.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Mockery View Post
                I had somewhat mixed feelings about Dragon initially. Having read the interview, those feelings have upgraded to intensely mixed on both sides. I'm willing to hold judgment until we have a text.

                But I really want to see a text.
                Same boat, but I will state that misgivings about the direction of this book do not impact my thoughts/feelings about anyone working on it.

                Apparently we need to remind people personal attacks are not ok. That bothers me more than the...questionable ideas discussed about the book.


                Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

                  Apparently we need to remind people personal attacks are not ok. That bothers me more than the...questionable ideas discussed about the book.

                  Why? People have been conducting personal attacks for hundreds of thousands of years. It's only in recent decades that we started becoming more conscious of other people's feelings.

                  Honestly, I think people getting in an uproar about the works of Lovecraft and ancient Dragon empires being added to the game is both hilarious, and infuriating. Seriously, I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

                  Main argument against it seems to be that people don't like it, because it's not a "real" religion, or that it mocks the other pantheons presented in the book. To which I'm sitting here wondering why they have made no mention of adding Scientology and Mormonism to the game. They're both real world religions, and if we're going by the motto that "all myths are true" then that means there should be Scions running around in magic underwear, while Xenu carries out his plans for galactic conquest!

                  If that sounds ridiculous to anyone, too bad. There are 14.8 million followers of Mormonism and roughly 30,000 believers in Scientology. If you want to claim that those aren't real religions, then you're being offensive to their beliefs!

                  People need to relax and understand that this is just a game. A game in which you are playing a character who is either the biological offspring, or a chosen herald of the very deities the people claim to devoutly worship. And then elevating yourself to become a member of one of these pantheons; or trying to force modern day sensibilities onto the ancient rites, traditions and belief structures of said pantheons.

                  People don't seem to have any problem with that concept. But as soon as you introduce space aliens and Dragon kings, that's when you've crossed the line!
                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 08-16-2019, 11:55 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                    Why? People have been conducting personal attacks for hundreds of thousands of years. It's only in recent decades that we started becoming more conscious of other people's feelings.

                    Honestly, I think people getting in an uproar about the works of Lovecraft and ancient Dragon empires being added to the game is both hilarious, and infuriating. Seriously, I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

                    Main argument against it seems to be that people don't like it, because it's not a "real" religion, or that it mocks the other pantheons presented in the book. To which I'm sitting here wondering why they have made no mention of adding Scientology and Mormonism to the game. They're both real world religions, and if we're going by the motto that "all myths are true" then that means there should be Scions running around in magic underwear, while Xenu carries out his plans for galactic conquest!

                    If that sounds ridiculous to anyone, too bad. There are 14.8 million followers of Mormonism and roughly 30,000 believers in Scientology. If you want to claim that those aren't real religions, then you're being offensive to their beliefs!

                    People need to relax and understand that this is just a game. A game in which you are playing a character who is either the biological offspring, or a chosen herald of the very deities the people claim to devoutly worship. And then elevating yourself to become a member of one of these pantheons; or trying to force modern day sensibilities onto the ancient rites, traditions and belief structures of said pantheons.

                    People don't seem to have any problem with that concept. But as soon as you introduce space aliens and Dragon kings, that's when you've crossed the line!
                    I believe this to be a slight misunderstanding of the issue at hand here Nyrufa. As you say, the core conceit of the game is All Myths Are True and what has been presented to us with Dragon thus far is in violation of this core concept. By saying that, for instance, the Túatha Dé Danann fought in this war against the dragons the closest thing they have to an Origin Myth is rendered incorrect. The Túatha Dé Danann are nowhere near involved with creation and are all super after the fact figures, none of whom could have been involved in this war with the dragons. But, if all the Pantheons were... then we get into the territory of the game directly invalidating the myth and in the process violating All Myths Are True. This is the same with the Theoi, before the events of creation, the Theoi did not exist. The same for the Netjer, and so on, and so on. The setting suggested by the Dragon interview is a violation of this core tennant of the game.

                    And I would counter your point about people needing to relax just because this is a game. This is a game, a company is making capital off the cultural traditions of peoples and cultures, some of whom were destroyed, mistreated, and torn to shreds by callous cruelty. Why not be kind, and bother to care? Why not put in that little bit of effort to show respect to the dead? We can do nothing for the cultures destroyed by ethnocide, genocide, or simply time than remember them as they would want to be remembered. To respect them and treat them with the kindness that I would hope everyone would want to give.

                    It isn't hard to be respectful, and to be kind to the memories of those long gone.

                    Edit: Also I don't understand your point about Mormonism, of course it is a real religion and therefore implicitly part of The World. So what if they have a religious tradition that seems odd or strange to some people? I don't understand the point there. Scientology is more of a crap shoot as many national bodies do not recognize its status as a religion, such as Canada, but that would be an off topic discussion to get into.
                    Last edited by Watcher; 08-16-2019, 12:48 PM.


                    Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                    The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                      I believe this to be a slight misunderstanding of the issue at hand here Nyrufa. As you say, the core conceit of the game is All Myths Are True and what has been presented to us with Dragon thus far is in violation of this core concept. By saying that, for instance, the Túatha Dé Danann fought in this war against the dragons the closest thing they have to an Origin Myth is rendered incorrect. The Túatha Dé Danann are nowhere near involved with creation and are all super after the fact figures, none of whom could have been involved in this war with the dragons. But, if all the Pantheons were... then we get into the territory of the game directly invalidating the myth and in the process violating All Myths Are True. This is the same with the Theoi, before the events of creation, the Theoi did not exist. The same for the Netjer, and so on, and so on. The setting suggested by the Dragon interview is a violation of this core tennant of the game.

                      And I would counter your point about people needing to relax just because this is a game. This is a game, a company is making capital off the cultural traditions of peoples and cultures, some of whom were destroyed, mistreated, and torn to shreds by callous cruelty. Why not be kind, and bother to care? Why not put in that little bit of effort to show respect to the dead? We can do nothing for the cultures destroyed by ethnocide, genocide, or simply time than remember them as they would want to be remembered. To respect them and treat them with the kindness that I would hope everyone would want to give.

                      It isn't hard to be respectful, and to be kind to the memories of those long gone.

                      1 - Ah, well yes, that would pose a problem. At least when it comes to Mythos, it's not directly associated with the other pantheons' histories. To the best of my knowledge.

                      2 - I understand what you're trying to say on this point, but then I think about how the game is trying to update these polytheistic religions to be more appropriate to modern times, and I just think that completely ruins the idea of being respectful to them. The game isn't trying to accurately portray what these polytheistic cultures believed in, and is instead just cherry picking the parts they find enjoyable, while hand waving all the negative aspects about their faith so as to not offend anybody.

                      If the Theoi are not prone to dramatic overreactions at the slightest perceived insult, then they aren't truly the Theoi as I have come to know them.


                      Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                      Edit: Also I don't understand your point about Mormonism, of course it is a real religion and therefore implicitly part of The World. So what if they have a religious tradition that seems odd or strange to some people? I don't understand the point there. Scientology is more of a crap shoot as many national bodies do not recognize its status as a religion, such as Canada, but that would be an off topic discussion to get into.
                      Ah, well the point on that is the Mormon faith does to the native American cultures what Dragon does to the pantheons in Scion. Also, their explanation for why black people exist, is because it's a curse placed upon them for choosing to remain neutral in the argument between Jesus and Satan. Also, they're forbidden from becoming gods, and must serve eternally as slaves in the afterlife.

                      So yeah... awfully hard sell on that front, if we're going by the All Myths Are True scenario.
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 08-16-2019, 01:00 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        1 - Ah, well yes, that would pose a problem. At least when it comes to Mythos, it's not directly associated with the other pantheons' histories. To the best of my knowledge.
                        Well, the issues I have with Mythos are another whole host, but this is not the forum thread intended for that discussion. I believe I explained my reticence in detail on that point elsewhere though, though at this point I cannot remember for sure if I posted it here.


                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        2 - I understand what you're trying to say on this point, but then I think about how the game is trying to update these polytheistic religions to be more appropriate to modern times, and I just think that completely ruins the idea of being respectful to them. The game isn't trying to accurately portray what these polytheistic cultures believed in, and is instead just cherry picking the parts they find enjoyable, while hand waving all the negative aspects about their faith so as to not offend anybody.
                        I'm terribly sorry, but I once again don't entirely understand how this ruins the idea of being respectful? And, once again I would point out that the Pantheons in play currently are not all Polytheistic, there are two, bordering on three depending on how in depth you read the Túatha Dé Danann, Monotheistic Pantheons in Scion: Hero. I would never hand wave a negative aspect about the traditional cultures these Pantheons, and I don't think it is a necessary thing to do for a Scion game.

                        Very clearly we have different concerns and directions with our games Nyrufa, but, I mean, I think the binary you are seeing the situation in might be limiting to a degree. While Scion can't be perfectly respectful, sometimes it has to guess and fill in the blanks which might unwittingly be misrepresenting something, it can still strive to do its very best. Just because the game line wishes to present modern day version of some of these faiths that died out or were at least interrupted, that doesn't mean it can't still strive for that kindness and respect, to find it where it can and aim for that ideal. Just because there might be an aspect somewhere that isn't perfect doesn't mean the game line ought not to strive to try its best to be kind to the dead and gone. Especially as they are making a profit off these sacred beliefs.

                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        Ah, well the point on that is the Mormon faith does to the native American cultures what Dragon does to the pantheons in Scion. Also, their explanation for why black people exist, is because it's a curse placed upon them for choosing to remain neutral in the argument between Jesus and Satan. Also, they're forbidden from becoming gods, and must serve eternally as slaves in the afterlife.

                        So yeah... awfully hard sell on that front, if we're going by the All Myths Are True scenario.
                        That is a fair point, I probably would have lead what that being your primary concern rather than the 'magic underwear' sounding ridiculous to you. This is of course something I think a lot of game tables, as well as the Scion team, would be uncomfortable addressing. However, such grim perspectives are far from unique to Mormonism. For a lesser, and admittedly more dated example, the Welsh Pantheon, for instance, believes that the Irish are bestiality loving idiots who only procreate through incest and are all bound for Hell. Scion actually already includes/legitimizes these perspectives (though I believe unintentionally) in the Túatha Dé Danann chapter as the individual who pushed these ideas is also the only source for Brigid being related to Fire.

                        I can entirely empathize with tables that would rather hand-wave this issue, but I don't really understand what it has to do with your main point in relation to Dragon however. I believe you are arguing that if people want accuracy they also ought to to want Mormonism and Scientology included as Pantheons, otherwise they are hypocrites? Or have I misunderstood your point? I am worried that this might be getting a bit off topic.


                        Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                        The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann.

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                        • #42
                          The thing here is: people don’t want to mess with real religions, but want to create a book about the gods of religion from real world. The guys from OPP did a awesome research and treated all the religions and beliefs with respect, but they have their own beliefs, and it’s clearly not the ones in the book.

                          I mean, I know the “no Monotheistic” restriction is not about what they believe, but about protecting from crazy religious people that get offended when you say their religion is equal to any other.

                          Candomblé, the real world religion, is a Monotheist religion, and the Orixás are equivalent to angels, demons and catholic saints, working as intermediaries between the one true god and the people. So, putting the Orishas in the book is a violation of the Monotheistic restriction, the same as it would be for an Angels and Demons pantheon.
                          Of course it doesn’t matter because, first, the Candomblé followers respect the other people beliefs, they don’t care if you think their Orishas are imaginary friends, gods or demons, because their belief don’t require anyone else belief, second, the number of Candomblé followers in US is very limited, so no big suits... But that’s not the point here and I don’t really want to discuss this anymore than anyone.

                          Scion is a Game, based on real world as much as any other game, book, movie, etc, more details, and a big respect for the real people behind, but still a game. Dragon, by adding a “non real” element as an optional part of the game is not making the game more or less respectful to the real religions, the same way that happen when you add the Mythos.

                          The mere fact you say all myths are true you are disrespecting the fact that all myths claim to be the only one true. The mere fact we are talking about inter-pantheon politics or fictional cults is a disrespect to the real religions and to the original research done by OPP, yet, it’s implicit to the setting.

                          In the end, Dragon will not break your game any more than adding Aesirs to your game. The fact that the dragons fought a war against the gods is as real as the fact that they didn’t, because ALL myths are real, and the big war from dragons myths is as real as the absence of it from the other myths.
                          Last edited by Mateus Luz; 08-16-2019, 01:41 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                            I believe this to be a slight misunderstanding of the issue at hand here Nyrufa. As you say, the core conceit of the game is All Myths Are True and what has been presented to us with Dragon thus far is in violation of this core concept. By saying that, for instance, the Túatha Dé Danann fought in this war against the dragons the closest thing they have to an Origin Myth is rendered incorrect. The Túatha Dé Danann are nowhere near involved with creation and are all super after the fact figures, none of whom could have been involved in this war with the dragons. But, if all the Pantheons were... then we get into the territory of the game directly invalidating the myth and in the process violating All Myths Are True. This is the same with the Theoi, before the events of creation, the Theoi did not exist. The same for the Netjer, and so on, and so on. The setting suggested by the Dragon interview is a violation of this core tennant of the game.
                            This doesn't follow. If All Myths Are True, doesn't that include the ones that are innately contradictory? If we're going to be able to (as I believe has been said) form our own pantheons and retroactively add our own creation myths to the World, doesn't that mean that we're going to have gods that existed before the pantheons they came from existed? Why is treating dragons like just another Myth so hard?

                            Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                            And I would counter your point about people needing to relax just because this is a game. This is a game, a company is making capital off the cultural traditions of peoples and cultures, some of whom were destroyed, mistreated, and torn to shreds by callous cruelty. Why not be kind, and bother to care? Why not put in that little bit of effort to show respect to the dead? We can do nothing for the cultures destroyed by ethnocide, genocide, or simply time than remember them as they would want to be remembered. To respect them and treat them with the kindness that I would hope everyone would want to give.

                            It isn't hard to be respectful, and to be kind to the memories of those long gone.
                            It isn't hard to be respectful, but respectful doesn't have to be "100% accurate at all times". When the differences are the ones that are obviously fictional I don't think it's doing any harm to the memories of those myths. And if respectfulness does demand 100% accuracy, then that's too bad, because I can't run the high-action game of wild monster-fighting I want to and worry about whether having Ijapa as a race of tortoise-people is accurate.

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                            • #44
                              ​A couple of things to note now that this thread has risen up again:

                              1) Scion: Dragon is a highly related but slightly separate book to the main Scion lines. Dragon takes the setting as presented in Origin and Hero (and, to a degree, Demigod) as a given -- but Demigod isn't written assuming everything in Dragon is relevant, the same as Masks of the Mythos. I'm not going to say "well, okay, those are non-canon books" because as the Companion notes with the Myth Level system, canon is already a loose term in Scion. Demigod will have some sidebars talking about Dragon and Mythos' specific mechanics, but they're small, and only to the degree where their mechanics interact with Demigod (how Dominion Boons interact with corrupted Boons, and Dragon Callings and dragons assuming Mantles). But other than those two sidebars if you want to pretend Dragon doesn't exist you can definitely do it. I'd really prefer you to check it out: Dragons are badass myth creatures, there will be new Knacks that some Heroes and Demigods can use, and it makes the setting a little jucier and more complex. By the same token Mythos has some really cool dark and wicked takes on Boons and Purviews, some great advice about running pantheons-as-adversaries, and a robust investigative system to bolt on to core Storypath. Those can be used without using the other stuff in the books, which if you want to pretend they're on the same level as the Atlantean Pantheon -- who are also seriously cool -- be my guest.

                              2) The Dragon team has, in fact, done a lot of research. They're not shoehorning in a myth where the Irish fought dragons - but you have to admit that Ireland has at least a few myths about serpents and there's a dragon on the Welsh flag and isn't that weird. A lot of them are Middle Age Christian Irish myths where Caeilte tells St. Patrick that the Fianna used to be the dragonslayers, and those are post-Tuatha, sure. But we have to start somewhere. The Dragon team has consolidated and interpreted myths about giant serpents, dragons, and "big worms" under a single unified mechanics system and myth structure, which is a more specific thing that Scion does as a line. They're done their homework and made educated guesses about gaps in the record - the idea that they're just gonna make a ton of shit up just isn't true. Lots and lots of mythologies have stories about giant honking death lizards, it turns out.

                              2a) When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. Scion as a game line needs to prioritize playability and a coherent setting. We strive to be as accurate and respectful as possible, and if we'd venture into being disrespectful we just don't do it. But in the blank spaces between myth, we need to piece together a coherent game setting, and that means judgment calls and interpretations and even decided areas where we leave it up to your game. Your game might not be the same as someone else's given how you prioritize the secrecy of the divine in the setting, the Titanomachy, which pantheons' mythologies have primacy over others*. Your game might not even have the same Gods -- in one game, Poseidon is guilty of serial sexual assault and is a villain, while in another it was all a misunderstanding in myth and everyone was cool with consensual shapeshifting nookie. In one game, Hades kidnapped Persephone; in another, that was how Demeter spun her daughter running off with the King of the Underworld to be all dark and spooky. These things can change, and they can change from game to game.

                              2b) All Myths Are True is a maxim, not an axiom. It means that in Scion, every myth has a degree of truth and validity so long as it was preceded by an actual event. It also means that, due to the cyclical nature of Mantles and Incarnations, certain contradictory myths can both be true. It further means that even contradictory Creation Myths can all coexist with one another because they reinforce the nature of The World rather than negatively mess with it. But it doesn't mean, outside the asterisk below, that some myths override others. Humans being descended from bears and others made from clay means that sometimes you'll find weird junk strands of DNA in someone that resemble ursine DNA, and sometimes you'll find a shocking amount of clay in their bodies.

                              2c) The history of Dragons stretching into prehistory and before the evolution of humanity is their own myth based on memory (which is very important to dragons)...but memories aren't always very accurate or even true.

                              *By default, all myths are true and equal. However, if you want to plan a setting like In Nomine or Supernatural or even Scion: Ragnarok, where one pantheon has a clear primacy and truth over others, we give you some rules and guidelines to do that. We also give guidelines on how to establish primacy within a scene.


                              Neall Raemonn Price
                              Beleaguered Scion Developer

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The sentiment that Dragon might be optional canon on a level similar to Masks of the Mythis is tranquilizing, but I hope the team can understand how so far, the message hasn't been very pacifying to the concerns of readers who came for one thing feeling kind of cheated that Dragon sounded like another, slightly different thing.

                                Scion is a game, and it needs to prioritize playability; this is true. Scion is a game, and it takes inspiration from many incredibly different and diverse beliefs, and characterizes them in a common framework that allows them all to share a setting, and it stretches some definitions for it; this is also true. But every piece of the setting presented in Origin and Hero that comes from a particular myth is based on that mythology or literature first, and there are big stretches of advice in either book talking about the appropriate portrayal of these things.

                                One can't say the assumptions of Dragon follow the same principles if it takes figures from many mythologies, and starts from inventing a myth to present them, albeit ambiguously, in a unified structure. There's a difference between "the Pantheons of Scion are each based on their myths" and "the history of Dragons in the World is based on their own Myth", and it is that *the latter is made up for this purpose*. Scion in the core books available so far supports different degrees of adherence to myth, it supports remixing and flexing different sources, and this is friendly to use. Because "canon" is a dubious assertion to make, and because not everyone can be expected to treat things with the same detail, as ultimately it's for fun. And All Myths Are True may be a descriptive rather than prescriptive statement, but some concept drift seems fairly obvious.

                                Which is why I don't think either side has reason to be defensive, here or in related communities. The writers and developers have no reason to be unclear on how some of the upcoming books may diverge from the initial concept of Scion 2e even though they have the same inspirations and use the same research, and in response the fans and forumers have no reason to be bitter beyond their personal hopes and preferences.

                                I get that the team speaks up for their own, and that readers can be easily disappointed, but I feel like a little more sincerity could have gone a long way towards preventing this discussion.

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