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  • #46
    Fair enough, but obviously it must be possible for Scions and the like to do stuff without getting fucked over by the narrative, because otherwise there wouldn't be stories of the Gods and their Scions doing amazing things in our real-world myths - and in Scion 2nd Edition, since the Gods/Scions "never went away", those sorts of legends obviously continue to the present day. Maybe there's a game mechanic in place to prevent the Gods from just taking over, or changing the entire world with a hand-wave, but if it's really as simple as your "Thor hates poor people!" example [which I acknowledge is probably exaggerated for effect], then it isn't going to be much fun to play higher-powered beings in the game. I'm not suggesting that Perun, Dilga, and Tlaloc are wandering around doing miracles every day; I'm saying that the assumption that some of the writers here have, that the appearance and deeds of Scions is a surprise to the world and would require a "Masquerade" to cover up, is basically flawed in the 2nd edition world. In 1st Edition, the metaplot was "The Titans have returned, and now the Gods have to come back and fight them", so they were essentially myths until now - the sudden rise of people with powers would be a surprise to normal humans. In 2nd edition, they never went away, and so they aren't an unknown and unheard-of phenomenon. It requires more world-building, but that's the Scion world that is presented to us.

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    • #47
      Oh, the Gods interact all the time in the World. Aphrodite blesses her Aphro-datey app. Loki wrecks mischief without revealing their true nature. It wouldn't surprise me if a few Bollywood movies feature the Deva as themselves, though maybe not openly so.

      But their influence is most heavily felt in their champions. If someone makes an offering to the Teotl to save them, and a Hero of the Pantheon responds, surely they were sent by Tlaloc for whom the offering was made.

      The first response to most of the Gods' problems in the World is the Heroes. A multi-armed woman appears with a holy now granted by Durga. Durga herself will only appear if the need is greater than any with her blessing can handle, because manifesting is inherently risky.

      tl;dr - There's a difference between influencing and interacting with the World and appearing in your full glory going "LOOK UPON INDRA, MORTALS"
      Last edited by Kyman201; 07-21-2019, 04:33 PM.


      Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
        Fair enough, but obviously it must be possible for Scions and the like to do stuff without getting fucked over by the narrative, because otherwise there wouldn't be stories of the Gods and their Scions doing amazing things in our real-world myths -

        and in Scion 2nd Edition, since the Gods/Scions "never went away", those sorts of legends obviously continue to the present day. Maybe there's a game mechanic in place to prevent the Gods from just taking over, or changing the entire world with a hand-wave


        1 - In what way do you mean? Fate is not inherently malicious, it builds the narrative around the actions of those characters who interact with it. For all you know, them performing amazing things could have been in line with the narrative all along.

        2 - The Gods don't need to "take over" anything. They already rule the cosmos. Mortals openly worship them, and when those mortals die, the Gods are the ones in charge of issuing their final judgement. A judgement which no amount of wealth, political influence, or military firepower can protect you against. Putting a God in charge of the oval office would be a DOWNGRADE for someone of their station.
        Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-21-2019, 06:59 PM.

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        • #49

          I think that homeless person is clearly Loki in disguise.




          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #50
            1. I was referring to the given example where Thor ends up fatebound to be perceived as a jerk because he pushes someone - if it's that hard for PC Gods to do deeds without being punished by the rules/the Storyteller, then the game won't be about larger-than-life adventures, it will be about trying to avoid getting screwed by the narrative.

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            • #51
              2. By "Take over" I meant a game mechanic (fatebinding) that stops the Gods/PCs from completely altering the world back and forth between their own dictates and whims on a constant basis.

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              • #52
                Either way, there is no "Masquerade".

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                  1. I was referring to the given example where Thor ends up fatebound to be perceived as a jerk because he pushes someone - if it's that hard for PC Gods to do deeds without being punished by the rules/the Storyteller, then the game won't be about larger-than-life adventures, it will be about trying to avoid getting screwed by the narrative.

                  Ah, that... You seem to have forgotten that Overworlds, Underworlds and Terra Incognita are things that exist in Scion.

                  At least when it came to first edition, the game seemed to follow the idea that as you increased your Legend, you became less directly involved with the World of mortals, and started moving on to outer planes. By the time you hit Demigod, you started going on adventures through the Underworld, and by the time you hit God, your journey took you through the Overworld.

                  There are lots of stories and Legends that Gods can participate in, without placing themselves at risk from mortal interaction. Just because mortals aren't directly involved in the story, that doesn't make them any less fun.
                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-21-2019, 09:18 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Ah, that... You seem to have forgotten that Overworlds, Underworlds and Terra Incognita are things that exist in Scion.

                    At least when it came to first edition, the game seemed to follow the idea that as you increased your Legend, you became less directly involved with the World of mortals, and started moving on to outer planes. By the time you hit Demigod, you started going on adventures through the Underworld, and by the time you hit God, your journey took you through the Overworld.

                    There are lots of stories and Legends that Gods can participate in, without placing themselves at risk from mortal interaction. Just because mortals aren't directly involved in the story, that doesn't make them any less fun.
                    Thanks for pointing me on one next brick to recreate 1E Masquerade scenario - totally forgot that Gods can spend eons in Terra Incognita realms. 😎


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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                      Ah, that... You seem to have forgotten that Overworlds, Underworlds and Terra Incognita are things that exist in Scion.

                      At least when it came to first edition, the game seemed to follow the idea that as you increased your Legend, you became less directly involved with the World of mortals, and started moving on to outer planes. By the time you hit Demigod, you started going on adventures through the Underworld, and by the time you hit God, your journey took you through the Overworld.

                      There are lots of stories and Legends that Gods can participate in, without placing themselves at risk from mortal interaction. Just because mortals aren't directly involved in the story, that doesn't make them any less fun.
                      No offense, but it seems that you are missing my point. I haven't forgotten anything - I own both editions of Scion, and have run a Scion-style "Gods in the real world" campaign since 1995, so I'm pretty well-versed in both the game, and in real-world mythology and religions [though I'm not a scholar by any means]. The gist of the thread and the debate had been "shouldn't there be a Masquerade or something to hide the existence of the Gods and their Scions from people, lest they be scooped up by the Men in Black, or bound to every random person they help", and my point was simply that such a thing doesn't really work in a game setting where "The Old Powers never went away." The conceit that the world is just like ours, and now Gods and Scions have "suddenly appeared", seems based on Scion 1st edition, and the various WoD books - it doesn't fit well with second edition. No, the Gods can't run around getting directly, personally involved in things all the time, nor should they; that's why they have Scions. But it shouldn't be earth-shattering, reality-shaking news when a Giant appears, and Scions turn up to fight it, because monsters, heroes, and Gods are common knowledge, even if they don't show up all the time. That's all I'm saying.
                      And I would presume that Fatebinding is going to be loose enough that it won't prevent players from playing Gods and having fun with the game, even if they don't end up dwelling in assorted Terra Incognita, Overworlds, and Underworlds all the time, particularly since [as has been pointed out] you can't get Legend if no-one knows about you.
                      Not trying to be huffy - I just don't want it to seem that I'm debating a point that I'm not.

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                      • #56
                        Purple Snit Once again, there is no masquerade in 2E. Everybody is fully aware of the existence of the supernatural, but they have wisely decided to avoid crossing the streams with each other. This is not World of Darkness, where the biggest threats out there could theoretically be defeated if mortals rose against them in great numbers. These are cosmic level beings, with the power to create and destroy entire worlds on a whim. Back in 1st edition, the 11th ranked Boons literally gave you the power to assume the role of Story Teller for the rest of the scene. I have never in my life heard of a game that allows you to usurp the Dungeon Master, using in game mechanics!


                        Also, you're probably viewing their involvement from the limited perspective of a mortal. The Gods don't have the time or the luxury to run around the streets, stopping a pack of Therianthropes from eating people in the woods, or a gang of Frost Giants from pillaging a mountain town. They are deities, who have been charged with overseeing duties on a universal scale. Perhaps even multiversal, depending on their level of power. By the time you actually reach Godhood, the problems of the mortal World should be insignificant to you. And the only reason you'd have to visit it are to keep in touch with your followers, and to recruit new talent for the budding war against the Titans.


                        The Gods not taking a more active role in the affairs of Mortals does not mean they are in hiding, any more than an appointed official refusing to cater to each individual problem a particular random citizen might have is in hiding. They simply have their hands full with more important work. Any problem that a mortal has to worry about is beneath the concern of a divine being, unless that problem happens to be apocalyptic in scale.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                          1. I was referring to the given example where Thor ends up fatebound to be perceived as a jerk because he pushes someone - if it's that hard for PC Gods to do deeds without being punished by the rules/the Storyteller, then the game won't be about larger-than-life adventures, it will be about trying to avoid getting screwed by the narrative.
                          I was being deliberately hyperbolic. Something like that probably won't happen each time a God manifests in their full glory. Thor would be able to make a statement about that, send his Scions after those who would besmirch his name, have official statements reach the cults who use the image of Thor the Poor-Person-Smasher. And I definitely doubt that the Devs would want to incentivize SG to stop the players from having fun at God Level.

                          But, something like that happening is enough of a possibility for why Gods, if they can, work through intermediaries and Heroes. There's less risk to themselves if they save "Direct Manifestation" as the emergency panic button.

                          And look, I never once said there was any kind of masquerade. There emphatically is not, and I've made an overly long post about why it's a dumb idea that doesn't fit Scion and in my opinion shouldn't be hacked onto the setting. But the thing I was trying to explain is that in the World, even as it is, you're probably not gonna see Odin riding down the street in his Odinmobile, while his Odin Heralds block out the road proclaiming "HERE COMES THE ALL-FATHER". Most Gods don't go announcing themselves.

                          I mean in some areas Surya may do his procession with his sixty thousand pocket-sized sage heralds but that's another legend altogether.

                          That does not mean that they are secret.

                          Shit, 'Hasn't openly appeared in centuries' doesn't stop people from OUR world from believing in their Gods. Anubis wouldn't need to appear at every Kesemic funeral for his worshippers to know that their loved ones are being guided to Duat by him.

                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                          Thanks for pointing me on one next brick to recreate 1E Masquerade scenario - totally forgot that Gods can spend eons in Terra Incognita realms. 😎
                          You go do that, I'm sure it'll be of equal quality to your other settings hacks.


                          Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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                          • #58
                            To clarify [see my question about whether people read what I'm actually writing]: I never said there was a "Masquerade" - I'm actually one of those who dislikes the idea and thinks it doesn't fit, which was what I was trying to say in my posts. And I repeatedly said that "Gods shouldn't appear to everyone" - but shouldn't the PCs be able to actually play their characters in the game without being fatebound to the point of strangling the game? Otherwise, it's going to be a bit dull. I also specifically stated that I knew that Kyman101 was being deliberately over-the-top in his post. Please, guys, read my words - we're debating something that I didn't even say in the first place.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                              And I repeatedly said that "Gods shouldn't appear to everyone" - but shouldn't the PCs be able to actually play their characters in the game without being fatebound to the point of strangling the game?
                              The thing about that is, it sounds like that is still an option for players. While it is true that Fate takes a more active role in the lives of Legendary beings, the books also made a habit of pointing out that those Legendary beings have some capacity to struggle against it.

                              If Fate decrees that you lose your right hand to a shark attack. It doesn't mean that you are going to inevitably be attacked by a shark, no matter what. It means that Fate will conspire to put you in a situation in which being attacked by a shark is a high probability. Now, depending on how aware you are of the situation, they can try to fight against it and maybe find a way to subvert Fate's narrative for a time.

                              I mean, just take a look at Zeus. According to prophecy, he's Fatebound to be defeated by one of his own sons. And that prophecy was told thousands of years ago, and involved a lover who has been long since dead. Now sure, it would be naive to say that the chances of the prophecy coming true are non-existent at this point. Eating people to prevent them from usurping you didn't work out for the last 3 rulers of Olympus, so why would it work out for him? But Zeus did manage to postpone his foretold downfall by several millennia!
                              Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-22-2019, 12:39 AM.

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                              • #60
                                What we know about Fate and gods is that Fate gets much stronger and has more effects at that level, this encourages players playing at that level to do things in Terra Incognitae, but at the same time it's been said that the differences in Fate and how they interact with you is going to make Demigod and God almost different games from Hero or Origin. It may be stronger and beat you down harder, but there are going to be different options available.

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